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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Yes, Zemgirl, I understand. I just don't like when some poster believe that their country is the best, they are very impatience, forgetting the big problems in their country. I like some posters who also hate the law, but trying to understand, what are the antecedents, what are the reasons of the law.

    about Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity they exactly wrote: right-wing populist, seditionary kommentators, daily 20 million viewers can reach their hateful words.

    -----
    PRlady and rfisher, your posts...very difficult to understand for me...give me a little time ...
    Not a problem. I know you are a fan of Russian skaters (so am I ) and I think you were upset when you felt people were being dismissive of Russia as a country. Some people were, but most of us find much to admire about Russia and don't think the Russian people are bad. A small number of people can create a bad impression that isn't reflective of the rest. You don't have to defend Russia. It's a bad law, but that doesn't mean Russia is a bad country or the Russian voters are bad. Or, at least that's the way I see things. I am just sorry for our Russian posters who are impacted by this law and hope that things will work out for them. And, as Zemgirl said, the real issue in Russia is that people who oppose LGBT people were able to get a law created and enforced by the government. Even so, I still don't blame the average Russian given the history of Russian sociopolitical process. The Russian government isn't a true reflection of the people. It's not a true democracy. Changing a law in Russia doesn't work the same way it would in the US or Israel. We know that, but sometimes in our impatience, we forget.
    Last edited by rfisher; 08-31-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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  2. #402
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    I have enjoyed this conversation, thank you.

  3. #403

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    Great post, rfisher!

    As a major russophile who lived and worked in this country, and hopes to do so again, I do have to say that this horrible law is making me weep blood because I think there is quite a bit of popular support behind it.
    Don't get me wrong, if some bloody politician hadn't dreamt up this law to boost his career, then no one in the general population, apart from some extremists, would ever have thought it was needed and clamoured for it. But now it's there, it's given a variety of people license to vent their frustration at life in general on some easy scapegoats. And not enough people seem to feel moved to defend the LGBT community, because unlike in a lot of western countries, there just hasn't been a drive to inform people and make them see the reality behind the nasty cliches.

    That said, let's not think we're that far ahead in the lovely PC West: I now live in France and the outpouring of vile homophobic feeling we saw when the law on gay marriage was debated, maliciously fuelled by some politicians who opposed that law, (again, more to gain political visibility than out of genuine feeling on the subject) can serve as a serious reality check to anyone dismissing the russians as backwards.
    Touching the void.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Why are you so sure that this is literally true? Because you could read in your media?

    No, because all the statistics come from objective international organizations like the World Health Organization, for example here: http://russiaviolence.hypotheses.org/789. This one is from Al Jazeera, no friend of the United States: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spo...311679897.html. This one is from the Guardian, a left-wing British paper very, very critical of the capitalist countries:http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...er-poor-poorer.

    This one, one general "miserable quality of life" is from your own Russian news service, Ria Novisti: http://en.rian.ru/world/20111201/169215535.html.

    The point is not that Russia is generally awful, in some ways it is improving since the period of stagnation in the 1980s. And it's sort of besides the point anyway, even if Russia measured much better on important standards, the anti-gay law would still be repressive, dangerous and in violation of basic human rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    Even so, I still don't blame the average Russian given the history of Russian sociopolitical process. The Russian government isn't a true reflection of the people. It's not a true democracy. Changing a law in Russia doesn't work the same way it would in the US or Israel. We know that, but sometimes in our impatience, we forget.
    I somewhat agree with this, but the difference between an anthropologist taking the long view and a social activist is to inquire why, twenty years after the end of Communism, Russia is getting less democratic, not more so. Why is Putin widely supported? (And he is.) Because democratic values seem to be less important than security, because Russia has no democratic tradition, because an ex-KGBnik is more in line with what the average Russian wants than the chaotic freedom of democracy. Take your pick, or make other suggestions. But to let the ordinary Russians off the hook because they have a bad government is no answer, any more than it let the US off the hook when we had a government lying about weapons of mass destruction and starting wars.
    Last edited by PRlady; 08-31-2013 at 05:55 PM.
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  5. #405

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    The Russian birthrate has improved to be one of the highest in Europe and is improving. The Murder of Turnovoi is being investigated and people were arrested. There are problems but saying that "Russia is dying off" and "people get away with murder" is not true. Especially the old thinking about the birthrate collapsing and collapsing. That is over.

    the propaganda law is bad and a big mistake but to say Russia is collapsing and dying and just everything is horrible all the time? No.

  6. #406
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  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    .....your own Russian news service......
    I don't think lala is Russian but rather from some former Soviet-bloc country. (Only relevant because some posters seem to be assuming that her defense of Russia as a country overall, notwithstanding her stated objections to the anti-GLBT legislation, seems to be coming from a sense of nationalism, and I don't think it is.)
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    I don't think lala is Russian but rather from some former Soviet-bloc country. (Only relevant because some posters seem to be assuming that her defense of Russia as a country overall, notwithstanding her stated objections to the anti-GLBT legislation, seems to be coming from a sense of nationalism, and I don't think it is.)
    You're right. Sorry for the assumption.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    I don't think lala is Russian but rather from some former Soviet-bloc country. (Only relevant because some posters seem to be assuming that her defense of Russia as a country overall, notwithstanding her stated objections to the anti-GLBT legislation, seems to be coming from a sense of nationalism, and I don't think it is.)
    You are a Sherlock Holmes... I'm not Russian. I like the sports, the Russian skaters, especially Evgeni Plushenko, I like the Russians in general, because I think they are the strongest people in the world, and their culture amazes me, but I don't like the Russian law. I hate the nationlaism( this is a big problem in my country), I hate the war, I hate every injustice, human evil, and the stupid people. I adore my family, the animals, and the ice-creams.
    Do you want to know more about me?
    Last edited by lala; 09-01-2013 at 10:04 PM.

  10. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    I don't think lala is Russian but rather from some former Soviet-bloc country. (Only relevant because some posters seem to be assuming that her defense of Russia as a country overall, notwithstanding her stated objections to the anti-GLBT legislation, seems to be coming from a sense of nationalism, and I don't think it is.)
    Not only lala is not a Russian, but I would assume she is from a non-slavonic country. My bet is Romania....

  11. #411
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    Last edited by lala; 09-01-2013 at 10:29 PM.

  12. #412
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  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Not only lala is not a Russian, but I would assume she is from a non-slavonic country. My bet is Romania....
    Ha. Before I even clicked I guessed Hungary, because uber-nationalism is a big problem there unfortunately. Lala, this is a serious question, I'm not trying to be snarky. Given Hungary's history with Russia and the bloody revolt in 1956, isn't there some anti-Russian feeling in your country?
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

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    I wouldnt had guessed because the Hungarian FSUer whose posts I actually read makes an impression of someone sane. Something I interpolated on all Hungarian posters. For some reason...

  15. #415

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Ha. Before I even clicked I guessed Hungary, because uber-nationalism is a big problem there unfortunately. Lala, this is a serious question, I'm not trying to be snarky. Given Hungary's history with Russia and the bloody revolt in 1956, isn't there some anti-Russian feeling in your country?
    That was the USSR and it was communists! Though of course those Hungarians did beat up those Russians in the pool at the Olympics! Anyway it was a long time ago and USSR and communists.

  16. #416

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    Brutal videos fuel Russian anti-gay campaign
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23901290
    Back at the gay cabaret in Sochi, club owner Andrei believes the debate about homosexuality is designed to distract Russians from more pressing problems at home and to unite the country behind the government.

    "Your average Russian citizen sitting at home watching TV now understands who he needs to fight against, who the enemy is," Andrei tells me. "It's gays - and the Western countries who support them. And the more the West supports gays in Russia, the more Russian people hate us - because the accepted wisdom here is that the West is evil."


    Russian anti-gay law prompts rise in homophobic violence

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...hobic-violence
    Recently an MP in the Siberian region of Zabaikalsk called for a law allowing gays to be publicly flogged by Cossacks.
    Last edited by Sugar; 09-02-2013 at 07:47 AM.
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  17. #417

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    Under Putin Russia is backsliding when it comes to democracy and human rights.
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  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    I wouldnt had guessed because the Hungarian FSUer whose posts I actually read makes an impression of someone sane. Something I interpolated on all Hungarian posters. For some reason...
    hmmmm. you aren't nice...this is an insult not only to me but also to the Romanians.. don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Ha. Before I even clicked I guessed Hungary, because uber-nationalism is a big problem there unfortunately. Lala, this is a serious question, I'm not trying to be snarky. Given Hungary's history with Russia and the bloody revolt in 1956, isn't there some anti-Russian feeling in your country?
    You are right, because of the revolution in 1956 some Hungarian people hate the Russians, but they are also angry with the Americans and the entire West because they didn't help, they didn't support the revolutionaries in the critical moments, because of any other political reasons. (But me, and most of people doesn't care of the athletes's nationality...just what they accomplish.)

    And a very important thing, the majority of Hungarians aren't nationalist, aren't more nationalist than other neighboring countries in Eastern Europe. The problem is the current government, the goverment has let them and use them in political game, they became stronger and louder.
    Last edited by lala; 09-02-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    But that isn't true. I think the Russians have informations about US and about other western countries, and probably they don't like what they are seeing. Probably they don't like too much the freedom, where the people can do whatever they want, drugs, crime ( I liked when any poster mentioned the Russian maffia, and forgot about own maffia ), sex, alcohol, sprees.. But i know the Russians also have very big social problems( corruption, poverty, underdevelopment in the rural areas etc.) you don't misunderstand me...
    I think the problem starts right here.

    Freedom of speech is equaled to "do whatever they want" and sex is in the same list as drugs, crime and alcohol.

    I read an interview with Mizulina, the one who started the law. She's an old dusted Soviet monster. What stroked me the most was not the homophobia or stupidity - that was expected, but her general despise of sex as something bad, dirty and forbidden. As part of "protecting the children", she said that she's going to promote the removal of sexual education in general from the school because "children should not get exposed to such things and it's family's job".

    Until homosexuality and sexuality in general stop being viewed as a worse thing than alcohol (that freely get advertised everywhere), such laws will continue having 80+% support.

    To me it sounds strange that someone in Russia, seemingly, tries to promote families and growth rate by forbidding tolerance toward minorities, but what do I know. Perhaps some people get a huge urge to reproduce after they chase with pitchforks and torches after their neighbors.
    In Soviet Russia, the skaters lobbychick YOU.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post



    You are right, because of the revolution in 1956 some Hungarian people hate the Russians, but they are also angry with the Americans and the entire West because they didn't help, they didn't support the revolutionaries in the critical moments, because of any other political reasons. (But me, and most of people doesn't care of the athletes's nationality...just what they accomplish.)

    And a very important thing, the majority of Hungarians aren't nationalist, aren't more nationalist than other neighboring countries in Eastern Europe. The problem is the current government, the goverment has let them and use them in political game, they became stronger and louder.
    Good point. We didn't do much of anything, did we? (I was born that year so take no personal responsibility.)

    And, just like the Russians and the Americans, the Hungarians deserve the government they have. Short of a totalitarian dictatorship, people bear some responsibility for who is in power, and the far right anti-Semitic Hungarian nationalists do have some following, just like our Tea Party and the neo-fascists in Russia. Hungary is still more or less a democracy, people vote. And I haven't seen anyone suggest that Putin does not command the loyalty of the majority of Russians, although when opposition leaders and independent journalists are jailed I'm sure it quashes a lot of protest.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

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