View Poll Results: Skaters who would be always unbeatable if clean

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  • Kim

    41 49.40%
  • Yagudin

    24 28.92%
  • Plushenko

    18 21.69%
  • Asada

    8 9.64%
  • Kwan

    9 10.84%
  • Stojko

    2 2.41%
  • Ito

    20 24.10%
  • Witt

    9 10.84%
  • Browning

    11 13.25%
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  1. #21
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    Asada does not have good quality jumps, especialy compared to Kim. Even a clean skate by her will have some 0 or even slight -GOE. Anyone who watched Asada's 2007/2008 GPF LP would say that was a clean skate though, and with no UR calls it definitely was. It was also by far the cleanest skate of such a difficult program as she has EVER done by far a well, and probably ever will.

  2. #22
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    As for 2006-2007 season it is hard to say for certain. However looking at Kim's Worlds LP she lost 10 points minimum on the two lutz falls to start (probably more since 4 points automaticaly for each fall and I am giving only 1 point in GOE for both, but she usually gets more than that), then another 7 and half points (assuming about 1 point in GOE again) on the triple salchow-double toe late she had discounted. The double toe from the salchow was meant to be on one of the lutzes so just switch that off, but one of her lutzes was also called a sequence so that is another couple points lost. Then a totally clean skate probably gains atleast 4 more points in PCS. Add it all up and she probably can score about 25 points more (especialy since she probably gets more than 1 point in GOE for a clean lutz like I said). That would take her to around 140, which is about the same as Asada would have gotten even totally clean.

    So while you say 06-07 would be clearly Asada and 07-08 very close, I would say 06-07 would be very close, and 07-08 would be clearly Kim winning, although not by the margin a clean Kim would have crushed a clean Asada by in 08-09, 09-2010, 2010-2011, 2012-2013 by yet. That is without even considering Mao has proven a clean skate by herself is almost impossible with the jumps she wants to attempt, while for Kim they are pretty easy to deliver.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post

    Then again maybe I am misreading the situation just looking at that one event. Maybe with Ito and Harding already out of gold contention in the short program they were determined to hand Kristi the long program right away as long as she did something credible as she was the only one left they could stomach winning. They didnt want to be stuck in a situation where by some miracle Nancy landed all 7 of her triples, or even 6, and they now had to give her the gold; or even worse Surya landed a clean quad plus 7 other clean triples with all the difficult combos she had planned, and they even had to give her the gold. So at that point Kristi landed the 2 lutzes, triple lutz-triple toe, and only 2 big misses, they were giving her the gold at that point no matter what; but had Tonya or Midori been higher after the short it would have been a different story with their marks for the skate she gave.
    I believe this is what happened in Albertville. Everyone was expecting the top 3 to be Kristi, Ito and Tonya. Once that was no longer, Kerrigan was able to get some extra points for her line and polish, and still be placed 3rd in that segment after a very mediocre technical skate. I still believe, going by their prior wins, that if Ito and Harding were clean in the SP, and skated with the 3A in the LP, Yamaguchis scores would not have been as high in either tech or artistic impression.
    There is an argument as is that both Ito and Harding should have placed higher in the LP portion (although it wouldnt have changed the results) with Midori winning the LP over Kristi, and Harding placing 3rd over Nancy.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    Asada does not have good quality jumps, especialy compared to Kim. Even a clean skate by her will have some 0 or even slight -GOE. Anyone who watched Asada's 2007/2008 GPF LP would say that was a clean skate though, and with no UR calls it definitely was. It was also by far the cleanest skate of such a difficult program as she has EVER done by far a well, and probably ever will.
    I agree Asadas performance at that GPF and in the 2010 Olympics are probably the cleanest we will see from her with that technical difficulty. By 2008-2009 season Kim had in the bag if she went clean.

  5. #25
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    Although it accurately reflects reality that she isnt being picked for this, I am surprised Kwan has so few votes on this poll. I had the impression she was a goddess on this forum, to the point it usually sidesteps reality.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    Asada does not have good quality jumps, especialy compared to Kim. Even a clean skate by her will have some 0 or even slight -GOE. Anyone who watched Asada's 2007/2008 GPF LP would say that was a clean skate though, and with no UR calls it definitely was. It was also by far the cleanest skate of such a difficult program as she has EVER done by far a well, and probably ever will.
    ok They did in LP in 2007 GPF. But also think about scores in LP in 2008 worlds.
    kim did everything except she popped 3lz. Asada fell on 3A, got downgrade on second 3Lo in 3F+3Lo combination. and asada was behind to yuna kim about 2 points. In GOE? There were not much difference in goe on jumps what two did well. Asada got +1.0 GOE on every jumps that she hits except 2a-2lo-2lo, and wrong edge 3Lz. Asada GOEs: 1.43 on 3-3, 1.14 on 2a, 0.71 on 2a-2lo-2lo, 1.14 on 3Lo
    by contrast, The jumps that kim could get +1.0 GOE is only 3-3. kim's GOEs :1.8 on 3-3, 0.5 on 2a, 0.7 on 3lz-2t-2lo, 0.43 on 2a-3t, 0.7 on second 2a
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_Scores.pdf

    There are definitely judgement difference between 2007 GPF, 2008 Worlds. I don't know reason
    Anyway This version results says clean Asada would win clean kim in that season without any doubts
    Last edited by karlon; 08-09-2013 at 11:46 PM.

  7. #27
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    Kim was badly injured at the 2008 Worlds and in really bad shape, and very sluggish, and had already done poorly in the short program which definitely affected how the judges scored her LP if she did anything other than a great performance (which she didnt). You can think what you want but others think differently as the high # of votes for Kim being unbeatable her whole career if she goes clean suggest. Along with that Mao isnt even capable of clean programs (especialy if you dont even consider her 2007 GPF LP, the cleanest skate she will do ever, ever, ever as clean) while Yu Na knows she can do them easily. Yu Na wouldnt even have to worry about a clean Mao with all her crazy jumps as there is no chance of that happening. Many years have shown this.

    Bottom line is if Kim had skated cleanly, which she has shown many times over she can easily do, she would have won every single event she entered from fall 2006. If there were brief periods a clean Mao could have beaten her, she never did it in any of the events Kim was in anyway, so Kim still only had to worry about herself to win each time.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    If there were no figures than yes ito would be unbeatable. We saw at the 90' worlds that she was beaten even when winning the sp and fp.

    voted for kim aswell as ito

    i would vote michelle but it was seen that she was beatable when clean at the 98 olympics.
    Ito could have been unbeatable at 90 worlds as well if she hadn't bombed figures even worse than usual. Had she done figures similar to 89 worlds where she was 6th, Trenary would have no chance.

  9. #29

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    When I think of Chan, I think of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPcPTXUh1uA

    And I don't care that it was at Nationals, but only that it was executed.

    Quote Originally Posted by t.mann View Post
    Right.
    Although at 09WC SP, a clean Chan with incredibly difficult program lost to Joubert with not-clean 4T3T & Lysacek without quad.
    So, are you trying to say Chan was robbed or that Lysacek and Joubert are just better than Chan?

    When I think of Lysacek, I think of a skater that won because of good execution of a well designed competitive program. When I think of Joubert, I think of empty programs enhanced by quads.

  10. #30
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    In addition to above my post, There were also difference in PCS between GPF, and World. her PCS was 1 ahead of asada in LP in GPF. but In 2008 Worlds, her PCS was 2 points lower than Asada
    In this version result, It says kim was also underdog in PCS, not only GOE
    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    Kim was badly injured at the 2008 Worlds and in really bad shape, and very sluggish, and had already done poorly in the short program which definitely affected how the judges scored her LP if she did anything other than a great performance (which she didnt). You can think what you want but others think differently as the high # of votes for Kim being unbeatable her whole career if she goes clean suggest. Along with that Mao isnt even capable of clean programs (especialy if you dont even consider her 2007 GPF LP, the cleanest skate she will do ever, ever, ever as clean) while Yu Na knows she can do them easily. Yu Na wouldnt even have to worry about a clean Mao with all her crazy jumps as there is no chance of that happening. Many years have shown this.Bottom line is if Kim had skated cleanly, which she has shown many times over she can easily do, she would have won every single event she entered from fall 2006. If there were brief periods a clean Mao could have beaten her, she never did it in any of the events Kim was in anyway, so Kim still only had to worry about herself to win each time.
    I know she was injured. but besides all that things, when just see two performances. 2007 GPF LP/2008 World LP
    In World, she looks a bit painful, less energetic than GPF, but there are not difference in quality of jumps between two competitions

    And I did not say clean kim has never been unbeatable skater. what I said was in 06-07/07-08 season kim was not unbeatable when she goes clean.

  11. #31
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    Kim ever being the underdog to Asada in GOE aspect. Now I have heard it all for stupidity galore.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Plushenko was the golden boy of Russia LOL, Yagudin was a bad boy off the ice by that time, the judges were happily rooting for Plushenko.

    Ok, let's check the 2002 Olympics lp, Yagudin was clean, Plushenko with slight mistakes, but their jumping contents were actually equal, Yagudin won all the technical and presentation marks, a total sweep.
    At European Championships and at WCH? I hardly believe that the international judges thought that Yag is a bad boy... (see Yagudin at 2002 ECh, where Abt was robbed! Yagudin won, because of his name) Plushy was an unbelievably talented kid, Yagudin was a two-time world champion ... but you are right, Plushy was the golden boy, because he beat Yag at Russian championships all the time, and in Russia Plush was/ is the better skater in all aspect.
    At SLC? Plush fell in SP, he lost any chance of winning, Yag became a probable winner of the Olympic Champion title. I now wonder if the judges gave Yag higher marks, and Plush did little mistakes, and Yag was perfect. Plush could beat Yag if they were both perfect.
    Last edited by lala; 08-10-2013 at 12:36 PM.

  13. #33
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    The way I would answer that for these skaters is which skaters would have won any event they didnt win had they gone clean, and didnt benefit from others unusual mistakes in any of the events they won.

    Kim- The only events she lost were 2006 Skate Canada, 2007 Worlds, 2008 Worlds, 08-09 GPF, 2010 Worlds, 2011 Worlds. It is quite obvious she would have won all those events without her mistakes, the margins of points of defeat were far less than the mistakes were worth. There is also no event she did won where she was fortunate someone else didnt skate as well as expected. So for her yes, she was always unbeatable when clean. I guess there are some events Mao might have won if both were clean which others discussed, but that goes beyond what is neccessary to evaluate since Kim winning any event she didnt win if clean, and not being lucky with others mistakes in any event she won is lready enough.

    Yagudin- I cant think of any event he wouldnt have won had he skated cleanly. Not even the 2001 Worlds since Plushenko only did 1 quad and Yagudin had 2 planned and a far more artistic program. Plushenko might have done 2 had Yagudin been in contention but even if he did I still think Yagudin going clean could have won. Just look at how he won silver with such a bad competition. I also dont think there is any event he was lucky with others mistakes apart from the 2000 Worlds where he himself was far from clean. So I voted yes.

    Plushenko- He couldnt have beaten Yagudin at the 99 Worlds even clean. I dont think he could have beaten Yagudin at the 2002 Olympics even clean either. He did skate cleanly and lost the 2010 Olympics to Lysacek. He was lucky Joubert made mistakes at the 2005 Europeans based on the points. At the 2002 GFP he went clean in all programs and still lost. So I voted no for him.

    Kwan- There are several events she definitely wouldnt have won even had she gone clean- 2005 Worlds, 99-2000 GPF, 2002 Goodwill Games, 2002 Worlds (since she lost the LP with a clean skate), 2004 Worlds (since her clean short was only 4th). At the 99 Worlds her LP was flat but almost clean and she was still .3 or .4 below Maria's LP scores to most judges, and barely took 2nd. Then events she did skate cleanly and lost like 95 Worlds, 98 Olympics. Events she was fortunate to win since others made unusual mistakes- 2000 Worlds, maybe 2001 Worlds and 2004 Nationals. So a huge no for her, not even close in fact.

    Witt- She was clean at the 88 Olympics and super lucky Thomas didnt perform better, Manley messed up her short program, and Ito was out of it after figures. She was even luckier at the 88 Worlds although she wasnt clean there. She was lucky Sumners made alot of mistakes at the 84 Games. The judges would have gone with Sumners that year if both were clean, unless Witt did the triple flip but I am not sure she even had that planned. She might have lost to Chin at the 85 Worlds had she gone clean. 82-83 she needed others to mess up due to her low figures placing, even if free skating she was unbeatable if clean maybe. I dont think she was unbeatable when clean, maybe from 85-87 but that is it. So a definite no for her, surprised so many picked yes, since the thread question was whole careers.

    Browning- 91 Worlds skated amazing with all kinds of super hard combos and still nearly lost to Petrenko who wasnt perfect. So already no. All his World title he could have lost to someone else skating as well as they could have, except for the 1993 Worlds maybe.

    Asada- Would have lost to Kim even clean at the 2009 Worlds or 2010 Olympics. Was lucky that Kim and Nagasu made mistakes at the 2010 Worlds. Was lucky with alot of mistakes from others at the 2008 Worlds, although she wasnt clean either. Still no way, not even close for her either.

    Ito- In the figures era was never unbeatable if clean. Post 92 was not unbeatable if clean, either in pro events, or in her comeback in 96 had she gone clean. 89-90 is the only time she was definitely unbeatable if clean. So I picked no for her.

    Stojko- is this a joke. He won almost all his events by others mistakes, although if they were making them regularly I guess they werent unusual mistakes.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    Bottom line is if Kim had skated cleanly, which she has shown many times over she can easily do, she would have won every single event she entered from fall 2006. If there were brief periods a clean Mao could have beaten her, she never did it in any of the events Kim was in anyway, so Kim still only had to worry about herself to win each time.
    Huh? Wasn't the Olympics the first time she skated two programs cleanly? So far, she has skated two clean programs twice in her career, which is more than her competitors have done but I wouldn't say it is an easy thing she did many times.

    Also, it is misleading to make an evaluation of the two skaters based on GPF results. Mao's GPF performance is the cleanest she did in terms of her landing all of her planned jumps. But it isn't the best in terms of execution. She has shown to land individual jump elements with better GOE's at other competitions that season and even some non-jump elements (certain spins) weren't as executed as well as she could have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Asada- Would have lost to Kim even clean at the 2009 Worlds or 2010 Olympics. Was lucky that Kim and Nagasu made mistakes at the 2010 Worlds. Was lucky with alot of mistakes from others at the 2008 Worlds, although she wasnt clean either. Still no way, not even close for her either.
    Not sure if Mirai would have edged Mao even if she went clean at 2010 Worlds, the margin in the SP between them wasn't that much. Also the possibility of her going fairly clean in a long program is pretty low. IMO. Definitely do not agree with your view on 2008 Worlds. The only competitor she had to really worry about was Yuna. At the time, I would consider Kostner's performances there as one of her better ones. It seemed unlikely that she would skate cleaner than Mao or Yuna. In the LP, Yuna actually skated a cleaner program than Mao but received lower PCS. In fact, Mao received the highest PCS at that competition, so I feel she went into that competition as a co-favorite at the very least and won not simply because of mistakes by others, esp since most of her competitors with the exception of Yuna, at that time, were more likely to make mistakes than her anyways.
    Last edited by miki88; 08-10-2013 at 03:27 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    The way I would answer that for these skaters is which skaters would have won any event they didnt win had they gone clean, and didnt benefit from others unusual mistakes in any of the events they won.
    Kwan- There are several events she definitely wouldnt have won even had she gone clean- 2005 Worlds, 99-2000 GPF, 2002 Goodwill Games, 2002 Worlds (since she lost the LP with a clean skate), 2004 Worlds (since her clean short was only 4th). At the 99 Worlds her LP was flat but almost clean and she was still .3 or .4 below Maria's LP scores to most judges, and barely took 2nd. Then events she did skate cleanly and lost like 95 Worlds, 98 Olympics. Events she was fortunate to win since others made unusual mistakes- 2000 Worlds, maybe 2001 Worlds and 2004 Nationals. So a huge no for her, not even close in fact.
    .
    For 1999 Worlds, the second mark was pretty close. Kwan had 5 clean triples to Maria's 7. If both had gone clean it would have been very close, so I don't see how you can say she definitely wouldn't have won.

    And I agree that 2000, 2001, and 2004 were all potential losses, but considering the skaters she was competing against, how can you call the mistakes by the others unusual, especially somebody like Cohen?

  16. #36
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    I didnt say she definitely wouldnt have won 1999 Worlds if she was clean. I said she might not have, and that her long wasnt bad at all, and she still was WAY lower in scores than Maria in the LP. BTW Kwan landed 6 clean triples and stepped out of a 7th, and Maria in fact also landed 6 clean triples and stepped out of a 7, so it wasnt 5 triples to 7. I listed that after a whole list of other events she definitely wouldnt have won if clean (2005 Worlds, 2000 GPF, etc...) or was clean and lost (1998 Olympics). Disregard 1999 Worlds if you wish however, it wouldnt change one iota of my overall point as there are a whole host of other examples, many which cant even be questioned.

    As for the events you referred that I felt others performed worse than "expected" or made unusual mistakes, 2000 Worlds was Slutskaya's worst performance of her last 4 or 5 events of the season, so it was definitely worse than usual for her. Had she done any of her last 4 or 5 performances she probably would have won, even the ones without a triple-triple (and for sure and easily any of the ones with one), based on the scores the judges gave her for her worst performance since early season. Butyrsakya even underperformed considering in practices she was going through clean long programs, and even her qualifying round program would probably have taken 2nd over subpar Slutskaya and won her the gold.

    2001 Slutskaya would have won with her Russian Nationals performance which was very recent (and was perfect with a clean triple lutz-triple loop), or had she just layed off after the first triple-triple-double rather than trying more, making mistakes, and making a bit of a mess of the program.

    Cohen would have won Nationals and Worlds in 2004 with her early season performances, but yeah I see your point on her.

    Either way Kwan is an easy no vote in this poll. She has skated clean and lost, there are events that were never in her reach even skating well (2005 Worlds, 2000 GPF, probably 2002 Worlds), there were events she made many fewer mistakes than a top competitor and still lost (2001/2002 GPF), events she probably needed someone else to blow a bit to win. Not even worth considering for this poll.
    Last edited by butyrskafanatic; 08-10-2013 at 04:50 PM.

  17. #37
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    I agree Kwan was never unbeatable, save for 98 nationals where noone was beating her, she had to work hard for her world/Olympic/national titles.

    How was Witt losing to Chin at 85 worlds though. I don't remember Chin grabbing any ordinals from the judges, and Witt went clean there anyway.

    Ito won a world pro competition over Yamaguchi, but I don't think the poll was taking into account pro events.
    Last edited by Lnt175; 08-10-2013 at 05:07 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Huh? Wasn't the Olympics the first time she skated two programs cleanly? So far, she has skated two clean programs twice in her career, which is more than her competitors have done but I wouldn't say it is an easy thing she did many times.

    Also, it is misleading to make an evaluation of the two skaters based on GPF results. Mao's GPF performance is the cleanest she did in terms of her landing all of her planned jumps. But it isn't the best in terms of execution. She has shown to land individual jump elements with better GOE's at other competitions that season and even some non-jump elements (certain spins) weren't as executed as well as she could have done.



    Not sure if Mirai would have edged Mao even if she went clean at 2010 Worlds, the margin in the SP between them wasn't that much. Also the possibility of her going fairly clean in a long program is pretty low. IMO. Definitely do not agree with your view on 2008 Worlds. The only competitor she had to really worry about was Yuna. At the time, I would consider Kostner's performances there as one of her better ones. It seemed unlikely that she would skate cleaner than Mao or Yuna. In the LP, Yuna actually skated a cleaner program than Mao but received lower PCS. In fact, Mao received the highest PCS at that competition, so I feel she went into that competition as a co-favorite at the very least and won not simply because of mistakes by others, esp since most of her competitors with the exception of Yuna, at that time, were more likely to make mistakes than her anyways.
    I think the judges were ready to give Mirai the World title if she had skated clean even going up against Mao. Mirai had made such improvements over the last couple months and showed what she could do at the Olympics that even though she wasn't a veteran like Mao or Kim she was a future champion in the eyes of the judges. Those 4 minutes in the LP changed her career forever who knows what Mirai might have accomplished if she had won.
    Last edited by Jammers; 08-10-2013 at 05:33 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I think the judges were ready to give Mirai the World title if she had skated clean even going up against Mao. Mirai had made such improvements over the last couple months and showed what she could do at the Olympics that even though she wasn't a veteran like Mao or Kim she was a future champion in the eyes of the judges. Those 4 minutes in the LP changed her career forever who knows what Mirai might have accomplished.
    Well, she skated pretty clean at the Olympics and still placed behind Joannie and Mao, who both had errors in their programs. I am not sure if a SP lead at Worlds would be enough to boost her standing that much in such a short time. She also did not get the highest PCS in the SP, despite being in the lead. What made the difference was that Mirai upgraded her technical content and the rules back then meant Mao would always been a jump short of most of her competitors if she missed/underrotated the 3A, which placed her at a big disadvantage. In the long, that disadvantage wasn't as costly. So theoretically speaking, if both skated their long programs clean at Worlds, then I think Mao still had the edge. I do agree that if Mirai had not skated so poorly in the long at Worlds and continued to improve afterwards, then she might have been seen as a future champion and her scores would increase, but that could be said about many young aspiring skaters through the years.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I think the judges were ready to give Mirai the World title if she had skated clean even going up against Mao. Mirai had made such improvements over the last couple months and showed what she could do at the Olympics that even though she wasn't a veteran like Mao or Kim she was a future champion in the eyes of the judges. Those 4 minutes in the LP changed her career forever who knows what Mirai might have accomplished if she had won.
    ITA.
    What Mirai missed the surprising & sweet taste's(Imagine you beat both Yag+Plush at competition right after 02Oly.) WC gold in front of her eyes seems somewhat to push her into a state of torpor or helplessness since 10WC.
    Last edited by t.mann; 08-10-2013 at 06:48 PM.

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