View Poll Results: Skaters who would be always unbeatable if clean

Voters
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  • Kim

    41 49.40%
  • Yagudin

    24 28.92%
  • Plushenko

    18 21.69%
  • Asada

    8 9.64%
  • Kwan

    9 10.84%
  • Stojko

    2 2.41%
  • Ito

    20 24.10%
  • Witt

    9 10.84%
  • Browning

    11 13.25%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold
    Along with that Mao isnt even capable of clean programs (especialy if you dont even consider her 2007 GPF LP, the cleanest skate she will do ever, ever, ever as clean)
    Lol, that's pretty disrespectful and something you simply can't know at all - and it just makes me consider to vote for Asada

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Huh? Wasn't the Olympics the first time she skated two programs cleanly? So far, she has skated two clean programs twice in her career, which is more than her competitors have done but I wouldn't say it is an easy thing she did many times.
    She skated cleanly at 07-08 Cup of Russia (atleast the long program for sure was whistle clean, and that is where she set her first ever LP WR). So that is atleast 3 times. Her 2009 Worlds should have been a perfect competition. I think she just lost focus in the last 45 seconds of her long program since she was excited and knew she had won already, and that is why she messed up the last 2 elements. You are right that Kim doesnt skate totally cleanly often but still she has done it several times so she is capable of it. Basically the program she plans for herself, while extremely difficult, is well within herself, and she is very capable of skating it cleanly, and she probably should in fact do it more often than she does. Mao on the other hand tries programs that are not within her realistic abilities, and that she has about the odds of winning a lottery ticket of going clean with, hence why she never does. The fact Mao fans are even disputing her only ever clean long program at the 2008 GPF was truly a clean program only helps prove my point further.

    Also, it is misleading to make an evaluation of the two skaters based on GPF results.
    What did you want to make an evaluation of the two skaters based on then? The 2010 Olympics where Mao would have lost by over 10 points even without her only two mistakes, despite 3 triple axels? The 2010 Worlds LP where Kim with a bunch of mistakes and a lackluster performance still won the LP over a near perfect Mao whose only mistakes was an UR call on one of her two triple axel tries, one of her best skates ever probably vs a mediocre skate by Kim. The 2009 Grand Prix final which was one of Mao's only ever wins over Kim post 2008 where Kim with a bigger mistake won the SP, and with several major mistakes barely lost to Mao who had only one mistake. Mao's SP and LP WRs of fall 2006 which were both broken by Kim in 2007? The fact Mao's LP all time PB is lower than Miki Ando's of all people. No Mao fans want to use the 2008 Worlds with an injured, slow, and lackluster Kim who made major mistakes in both programs as their only reference point to how clean Mao > clean Kim, LOL! Any other reference you use points to Kim, whether it is the 2008 GPF or any other.

    The 2008 GPF is Mao's only ever clean LP, overall her hardest ever LP, until the 2011 Worlds her highest ever LP score (but 2011 Worlds was a way worse skate and you know it) and overall her best LP ever so of course that is a barometer. No matter how hard you try and nitpick and say that isnt good enough, you arent going to get a better reference point than that for her ever, as she will probably never match that performance, and it still indicates Yu Na going clean have the advantage. The few skates you refer where she might have done some small things better she made significant mistakes in so overall was still an inferior performance.

    For the record I am not a fan of either Mao or Kim especialy, but it is easy to see who comes out on top more likely over the years if both go clean. All arrows point in Kim's favor, and few to none in Mao's. The only Mao who ever beats a totally clean Kim is one that not only goes clean with her jump layouts she is incapable of going clean with, but gets +2 of GOE on every element she tries including her flutz, some of her shakier jumps, etc...Well yes if Mao had the ability to get +2 and +3 on GOE on every single element, doing a 70 base value program, she probably would be unbeatable going clean, but unfortunately this is not reality.

    Reality is Mao's best ever LP scores are about 15 points below Kim's best ever LP scores, she never beats Kim unless Kim makes an unusual high number of mistakes for herself and many more than Mao, that Kim always scores significantly higher the rare times both are clean or make a similar number of errors (minus the 2008 Worlds LP as the one and only ever exception perhaps, but that is moot as Kim still won the LP and the only reason Mao won there is she had a clean SP before her flawed LP and Kim had both a flawed SP and LP) and that even back in 2006-2007 Kim's best short program and best long program score were both higher than Mao's initial WRs for a spectacular SP and LP both. The reality is that whenever Kim skates halfway decent since she became a senior skater in fall 2006 she wins and Mao, nor anyone else, has never once interfered with that to date. Every single time Kim lost she skated quite bad or worse. While even if Mao has never had a perfect competition and lost, only since she never has done a perfect competition and given herself the chance to, she unlike Kim has had many very good competitions and still lost, some quite badly- 2010 Olympics, 2011 Japanese Nationals and 2011 Four Continents (and not even Kim but Miki Ando, a much poorer skater), and with a great competition at the 2010 Worlds still couldnt win either program, losing one to a skater who never won a World medal, and the other to a poor Kim. Kim is far from my favorite skater, but that is simply a fact.
    Last edited by usova94gold; 08-10-2013 at 08:44 PM.

  3. #43
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    For the record, it was the 2007 GPF . Also, Kim skated pretty well in the long program at 2008 Worlds. It wasn't her best performance but not a bad one by a long stretch. And I'm not debating with you that Kim is more capable of producing cleaner skates or that things point to her favor when she skates cleanly. I just don't agree that the results was always so clear-cut throughout her career. Before 2008-2009 season, they had similar PCS and whoever skated better at the same event would get the higher one. And the judges were quite stingy with their GOE. Kim always had the GOE advantage but not nearly as much as she does now, which is where she really pulls ahead against Mao and everyone else.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    What did you want to make an evaluation of the two skaters based on then? The 2010 Olympics where Mao would have lost by over 10 points even without her only two mistakes, despite 3 triple axels? The 2010 Worlds LP where Kim with a bunch of mistakes and a lackluster performance still won the LP over a near perfect Mao whose only mistakes was an UR call on one of her two triple axel tries, one of her best skates ever probably vs a mediocre skate by Kim. The 2009 Grand Prix final which was one of Mao's only ever wins over Kim post 2008 where Kim with a bigger mistake won the SP, and with several major mistakes barely lost to Mao who had only one mistake. Mao's SP and LP WRs of fall 2006 which were both broken by Kim in 2007? The fact Mao's LP all time PB is lower than Miki Ando's of all people. No Mao fans want to use the 2008 Worlds with an injured, slow, and lackluster Kim who made major mistakes in both programs as their only reference point to how clean Mao > clean Kim, LOL! Any other reference you use points to Kim, whether it is the 2008 GPF or any other..
    In LP in 2010 Worlds, kim's mistakes were singles 2A, fall on 3S(did not lose bv). That LP was in level of good. I don't know really why you think so, on what standard, but It can Never, be called as a bunch of mistakes

    2008 World, In FS, Asada did more major mistakes than kim. Asada fell very serverely on 3A. after falling, She did not anything for 10 seconds. and downgrade on 3-3.
    what kim did was popped 3L, and got minus goe on 3S because of shaky land. She looked tired, but unexectedly she did well despite injury.

    In Olympic, if Asada did clean FS, She would be beaten by 10 points? I don't think so
    If you suggest 2010 World as an example, I don't think It is fair. That competition held right after kim got the biggest reputation in her career. and.. though I think It is also unfair to suggest national results as example. I think both are unfair, same. so I would. In 2009 Japanese National, she did the cleanest FS in 09-10 season except olympic. different thing with olympic in jump components was Mao Asada did only 1 triple axel in national, she changed one 3A to 2A to go safe. She did 3A, 2A-2T, 3F-2Lo, 3Lo, 3F-2Lo-2Lo, 3T, 2A. she did not 3-3, 3Lz, 3S, had 6 triples in olympic season
    She got downgrade on 2T in 2A+2T, 3F+2lo<+2lo<
    She got 135. If she did clean there, she would get score near 140. if she does 2 triple axel in FS there then, +4.7. also consider clean bonus PCS. I guess her score would be about 145
    Last edited by karlon; 08-11-2013 at 07:00 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by karlon View Post
    In Olympic, if Asada did clean FS, She would be beaten by 10 points? I don't think so
    If you suggest 2010 World as an example, I don't think It is fair. That competition held right after kim got the biggest reputation in her career. and.. though I think It is also unfair to suggest national results as example. I think both are unfair, same. so I would. In 2009 Japanese National, she did the cleanest FS in 09-10 season except olympic. different thing with olympic in jump components was Mao Asada did only 1 triple axel in national, she changed one 3A to 2A to go safe. She did 3A, 2A-2T, 3F-2Lo, 3Lo, 3F-2Lo-2Lo, 3T, 2A. she did not 3-3, 3Lz, 3S, had 6 triples in olympic season
    She got downgrade on 2T in 2A+2T, 3F+2lo<+2lo<
    She got 135. If she did clean there, she would get score near 140. if she does 2 triple axel in FS there then, +4.7. also consider clean bonus PCS. I guess her score would be about 145
    I'm finding it difficult to follow your reasoning.

    In the SP, a clean Yuna beat a clean Mao by almost 5 points (4.72 to be exact).

    In the LP, Yuna scored just over 150 (150.06 to be exact). Even if your estimate for a clean Mao is accepted wholesale, without any dispute (145), that would be also be a difference of 5 points.

    Yuna would therefore have beaten Mao by almost 10 points, again, even using your projections for a clean Mao LP. If more conservative projections are used, then Yuna would have beaten Mao by over 10 points.

    What am I missing here?

  6. #46
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    deleted post

  7. #47
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    Exactly. 5 points in short program (already done, nothing to debate) + atleast 5 points in the long program = atleast 10 points. Where is the confusion. An even easier estimate is her actual Olympic LP as it was. Mao got just below 132 for her long program. Take away her two mistakes which were worth about 8-9 points on their own, give some PCS and GOE (not that much GOE as Mao's jumps besides the double axel never get that) and you get 145 at best.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Plushenko was the golden boy of Russia LOL, Yagudin was a bad boy off the ice by that time, the judges were happily rooting for Plushenko.
    No, usually it was block judging. . French and US judges were usually favoring Yagudin no matter what. Same for Plushenko (I don't recall very well judges nationalities, but I can check some videos). Russian and Canadian judges used to care more about their actual performances. It was obvious why the Russian judges were the most relaxed, Mother Russia was going to win anyway.
    Last edited by ciocio; 08-12-2013 at 12:15 PM.

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