View Poll Results: Skaters who would be always unbeatable if clean

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  • Kim

    41 49.40%
  • Yagudin

    24 28.92%
  • Plushenko

    18 21.69%
  • Asada

    8 9.64%
  • Kwan

    9 10.84%
  • Stojko

    2 2.41%
  • Ito

    20 24.10%
  • Witt

    9 10.84%
  • Browning

    11 13.25%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
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    Any singles skaters in modern times unbeatable whole careers if clean

    Looking back in skating history there are many pairs and dance teams who were considered always unbeatable if they went clean, especialy dance. However are there any women and men who were unbeatable their whole careers if they went clean. I mean excluding the early years of their careers before the matured, and talking about only from the 1980s until today. Here are some possible candidates for that and which ones I would pick as yes or no:

    Michelle Kwan- I would say no. She lost the 98 Olympics to Lipinski even skating cleanly, many thought she should have lost the 96 Worlds to Chen despite skating cleanly, she could have potentially lost anytime to Slutskaya (and perhaps at times Butyrskaya) from 2000-2002 even skating cleanly, and she could have potentially lost anytime to Cohen even skating cleanly from 2003-2005, and to many skaters in the final season or two of her career.

    Yu Na Kim- I would say yes. I dont think there is any event from her senior debut in fall 2006 until today she would have lost skating cleanly. Some might argue there are periods a clean Mao would have had a chance vs a clean Kim like the 2006-2007 season, maybe even the 2007-2008 season, and maybe now, but that is moot since Mao never skates cleanly anyway. Besides the scoring evidence suggests Kim would probably have the edge all those periods even had both gone clean anyway.

    Alexei Yagudin- I would say no. I have seen him skate perfectly or nearly perfectly and still lose to Plushenko. At the 2001 Grand Prix final his only mistake was putting a foot slightly down on the 2nd quad and he still lost handily. Even had he done had that slight error he probably still loses. In the short program he skated cleanly many times and lost to Plushenko, so that probably would have carried to the long a few of those times too.

    Evgeny Plushenko- Again the answer is no. Just as Yagudin always had a chance even vs a clean Plushenko, a clean Yagudin always had a chance even vs a clean Plushenko. Plushenko skated perfectly and still lost the 2001-2002 Grand Prix final to Yagudin who had some mistakes.

    Midori Ito- I would say yes. The only ones who might have had a shot vs a clean Ito are Yamaguchi with all of the triple lutz-triple toe, 2nd triple lutz, and a clean triple salchow to give her 7 triples (would still lose tech. to Ito but might win it on the 2nd mark) or Harding with one of her stellar 91 performances with the triple axel. However Harding only delivered that level of performance twice and both were in competitions in the U.S which Ito was never going to be at, and Yamaguchi only delivered this twice and both in competitions in the U.S Ito was never going to be at.

    Mao Asada- I would say no. Even skating cleanly she was always losing to Kim also skating cleanly anytime from fall 2008 until her new jump layout and a bunch of rule changes starting in winter 2013 at the very least. She skated some cleanish performances and even lost to Ando several times in the 2010-2011 season.

    Elvis Stojko- I would say no. Urmanov or Kulik skating cleanly with a quad could beat Stojko skating cleanly even with a quad-triple even in his prime years.

    Any other candidates you can think of that might be unbeatable their whole careers (minus the early part) skating cleanly.

  2. #2
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    I added Witt and Browning. I cant believe I forgot them. I picked Witt as unbeatable if she skated cleanly anytime from 82-88, but Browning as not. Browning skated perfectly at the 91 Worlds with 3 triple-triples and still nearly lost to Petrenko who did 0 triple-triples, including the triple axel-triple toe he was supposed to do and stumbled out of a triple loop.

  3. #3
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    I would say both Ito and Harding would be unbeatable if they went clean. Harding skated like that only twice, but one of them was at an International competition Skate America, which Ito could have been at. If Harding had kept her 89-91 form I would say only Ito can touch her.

    As for Ito no way do I see her losing to Yamaguchi if she hits her 3A in the SP, then goes clean in the LP with another 3A (and more likely in combo as well llike she did at Lalique). Her 89 NHK LP, 90 worlds LP, and 91 TL were pretty much unbeatable, and only Harding could have topped those.

    Witt was unbeatable if clean from 84-88, and alot of that also due to figures.

    Kim was unbeatable in the 09-10 season. I do think a clean Asada could beat her in 06-08 period, with a 3A if both are clean, however it isn't a guarentee for Asada either.
    Last edited by Lnt175; 08-09-2013 at 01:33 AM.

  4. #4
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    Thing about Harding is she didnt always have the triple axel planned. In fact MOST events she didnt have it planned. Plus when she didnt she didnt even have a 2nd triple lutz or any of the harder triple-triples planned. I agree if she skated clean WITH the triple axel she was practically unbeatable, with only maybe a perfect Ito also with the triple axel having a chance to beat her. However when Harding didnt have a triple axel planned she was very beatable even clean. She was never a big judges favorite, the judges did not score her high artistically unless she landed the triple axel, and as already explained she typically had less technical content planned than even someone like Yamaguchi or Chen when she dropped the triple axel. The quality of her jumps and some of her other strong qualities were never rewarded enough without the triple axel to compensate either, and seemingly were only rewarded when she did the triple axel with it.

    Can you think of a single event Harding won skating well without the triple axel. 94 Nationals beating a 13 year old Kwan and splatty Bobek (and lets face it, Kerrigan would have been given the nod by U.S judges over even the very good Harding of those Nationals, if she simply stood up 3 triples or more) is the only one I can think of. The 89 Nationals where she skated awesome with all minus the triple axel and a then no artistry/only jumps (and tiny ones at that) Yamaguchi came from way behind after figures to beat her, and her 92 Olympic LP which was pretty much clean minus the triple axel miss and which was placed below a terrible Kerrigan, are references to how judges view a clean Harding minus the triple axel. Far from unbeatable to put it mildly.

    Ito always planned and attempted atleast one triple axel in the long program post 88 so no point doing a similar speculation for her.

    Although I am not sure for what its worth a hypothetical clean Kristi would be no threat to a clean Ito and Harding with the triple axel. Look at the marks the judges gave Kristi for 2 major mistakes at the 92 Games- 5.7s and 5.8s for technical, and all but 1 5.9 for presentation as the first skater in the final flight to boot. What would she have gotten had she gone clean, probably all 5.9s on the technical mark and 5.9s and 6.0s on the presentation mark? A clean Kristi would probably beat Ito or Harding by atleast .1 on the 2nd mark by almost every judge, and with the 2nd mark the tiebreaker that would mean Ito and Harding needing to beat her by .2 on the technical mark to come out ahead. Yet Kristi even with two major mistakes can get 5.7s and 5.8s technically. Then at the 91 and 92 Worlds missing the triple salchow she still got 5.8s and 5.9s technically. I never loved Kristi as an amateur, liked her way better as a professional, and found her frequently overscored so my assessment is based on the judges scores, not my personal opinion of her skating.
    Last edited by usova94gold; 08-09-2013 at 04:49 AM.

  5. #5
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    Harding won 89 Skate America without the 3A. There might have been a few other competitions in 88-90 period as well. I don't doubt she needed it because as we saw at 92 nationals and 92 Olympics without it she was marked much lower. She was penalized more than Ito at those Olympics even though both fell. I don't think she needed the second lutz if she landed everything else.

  6. #6

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    I think a clean Chan is unbeatable.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post

    Although I am not sure for what its worth a hypothetical clean Kristi would be no threat to a clean Ito and Harding with the triple axel. Look at the marks the judges gave Kristi for 2 major mistakes at the 92 Games- 5.7s and 5.8s for technical, and all but 1 5.9 for presentation as the first skater in the final flight to boot. What would she have gotten had she gone clean, probably all 5.9s on the technical mark and 5.9s and 6.0s on the presentation mark? A clean Kristi would probably beat Ito or Harding by atleast .1 on the 2nd mark by almost every judge, and with the 2nd mark the tiebreaker that would mean Ito and Harding needing to beat her by .2 on the technical mark to come out ahead. Yet Kristi even with two major mistakes can get 5.7s and 5.8s technically. Then at the 91 and 92 Worlds missing the triple salchow she still got 5.8s and 5.9s technically. I never loved Kristi as an amateur, liked her way better as a professional, and found her frequently overscored so my assessment is based on the judges scores, not my personal opinion of her skating.
    It seemed to me that there was a rise in Yamaguchis scores in general after Harding and Ito were in a downward projection after their fall GP events. Kristi meanwhile started the Olympic year with her best ever performance to win nationals, then went clean to win the SP at the Olympics. I do think she was viewed as the complete package, which neither Ito or Harding were considred, so if they didn't hit to their potential (or even came close to it as it was) then Yamaguchi was the bygone favorite. I do think she was overscored, even though she clearly deserved her Olympic gold medal. Ito and Harding just made it alot easier for the judges by underperforming.

    Another way of looking at is, if Ito hit her programs like she did at the 1989 worlds or Harding like 91 Skate America would Yamaguchi have any hope of winning even as being considered the "package". I honestly don't think she would be placed above those performances.
    Last edited by Lnt175; 08-09-2013 at 05:41 AM.

  8. #8

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    NIL. Because in a competition, it is not only dependable on how one skates, but how the others skate as well. I also think it is not fair to compare skaters who skated in 6.0 and figures era, and post COP because the criteria is different.

    Post COP, I think .... Mao and Kim MAY be hard to beat if they are clean bearing in mind what they are capable of.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I think a clean Chan is unbeatable.
    Right.
    Although at 09WC SP, a clean Chan with incredibly difficult program lost to Joubert with not-clean 4T3T & Lysacek without quad.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.mann View Post
    Right.
    Although at 09WC SP, a clean Chan with incredibly difficult program lost to Joubert with not-clean 4T3T & Lysacek without quad.
    That was before Chan had begun to emerge as the dominant skater and before he had a quad. So of course he wasnt unbeatable then. He is now if clean (and sometimes even with 5 or 6 falls).

  11. #11
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    Ito was clean in the SP and LP's at Worlds 1990 and still lost. Skaters pre- 1991 had to do compulsory figures so being clean didn't matter much if they buried themselves in compulsories first like Ito did in 1990 so skaters from that period had to do more then skate clean in the SP and LP.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    At the 2001 Grand Prix final his only mistake was putting a foot slightly down on the 2nd quad and he still lost handily. Even had he done had that slight error he probably still loses. In the short program he skated cleanly many times and lost to Plushenko, so that probably would have carried to the long a few of those times too.
    At the 2001 GPF, Plushenko did 2 quads, both in combination, one is 4-3-2. Though Yagudin made one mistake, still the technical content was not enough. And judges made it clear, if Yagudin could skate to his potential, the win was his, because his program had more in-betweens. 00-01 season, it's more like Yagudin took a break, he's not really himself.

    The SP? The only time he skated cleanly and lost to Plushenko was 2001 so, actually he didn't skated clean, he underrated his quad. Underrotation was a mistake would be punished heavily during 6.0 too especially in a short program. Plus he had a disaster qualifying skate, the judges just wouldn't let him win like this.

    I need a hint seriously, how many other times he skated cleanly and lose to Plushenko in sp? I only remember Yagudin won 2000 euro sp with slightly mistake and Plushenko clean. An absolutely clean Yagudin won over an absolutely clean Plushenko handily in 2000 worlds sp.
    Last edited by unicorn; 08-09-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    Kim was unbeatable in the 09-10 season. I do think a clean Asada could beat her in 06-08 period, with a 3A if both are clean, however it isn't a guarentee for Asada either.
    I agree that 06~07, 07~08 yuna was not unbeatable when she clean. And yes, I agree that clean Asada could beat her in that period.

    but kim was unbeatable in 08-09 when she went clean. She set SP world record when she went clean; 4cc, Worlds. In worlds, She had clean SP, close to clean FS but not clean, popped 3S in LP and got 207. she was first female skater who broke 200.In that season, Anyone could not close to 200 except her. I don't think clean asada would win clean kim in 08-09 season, of course It is not only applied to mao asada..

  14. #14
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    If there were no figures than yes ito would be unbeatable. We saw at the 90' worlds that she was beaten even when winning the sp and fp.

    voted for kim aswell as ito

    i would vote michelle but it was seen that she was beatable when clean at the 98 olympics.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    At the 2001 GPF, Plushenko did 2 quads, both in combination, one is 4-3-2. Though Yagudin made one mistake, still the technical content was not enough. And judges made it clear, if Yagudin could skate to his potential, the win was his, because his program had more in-betweens. 00-01 season, it's more like Yagudin took a break, he's not really himself.

    The SP? The only time he skated cleanly and lost to Plushenko was 2001 so, actually he didn't skated clean, he underrated his quad. Underrotation was a mistake would be punished heavily during 6.0 too especially in a short program. Plus he had a disaster qualifying skate, the judges just wouldn't let him win like this.

    I need a hint seriously, how many other times he skated cleanly and lose to Plushenko in sp? I only remember Yagudin won 2000 euro sp with slightly mistake and Plushenko clean. An absolutely clean Yagudin won over an absolutely clean Plushenko handily in 2000 worlds sp.
    ECH 2000, and 2000 WCH: Yes. But Plushenko was only 17, and Yagudin was two times world champion at that time. Two clean programs? The judges gave a little bit more points Yag, of course..

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    ECH 2000, and 2000 WCH: Yes. But Plushenko was only 17, and Yagudin was two times world champion at that time. Two clean programs? The judges gave a little bit more points Yag, of course..
    Plushenko was the golden boy of Russia LOL, Yagudin was a bad boy off the ice by that time, the judges were happily rooting for Plushenko.

    Ok, let's check the 2002 Olympics lp, Yagudin was clean, Plushenko with slight mistakes, but their jumping contents were actually equal, Yagudin won all the technical and presentation marks, a total sweep.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by karlon View Post
    I agree that 06~07, 07~08 yuna was not unbeatable when she clean. And yes, I agree that clean Asada could beat her in that period.

    but kim was unbeatable in 08-09 when she went clean. She set SP world record when she went clean; 4cc, Worlds. In worlds, She had clean SP, close to clean FS but not clean, popped 3S in LP and got 207. she was first female skater who broke 200.In that season, Anyone could not close to 200 except her. I don't think clean asada would win clean kim in 08-09 season, of course It is not only applied to mao asada..
    Although it would be very close and I cant say I know for certain, I think a clean Kim would have gotten the nod over a clean Asada even in 06-07 and 07-08. I have two barometers. The Grand Prix final LP of 07-08 where Asada cleanly executed her super difficult program with a triple axel and two triple-triples. Kim fell on her triple loop in her program which had a 6 points lower base value to begin with, and lost the LP by less than a point showing without the fall it was easily hers despite nowhere near the difficulty of Asada. Then the short program of Worlds in 2007. Asada even if you give her another 9-10 points for her missed combination (3 points for the automatic -3, 4.5 points for the base value of a single loop vs a triple, and some lavish GOE and a bit of PCS for a non disruptive error which is probably more than she gets but just being extreme for arguments sake) she still loses the short program to Kim and her slightly easier triple flip-triple toe combination.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    It seemed to me that there was a rise in Yamaguchis scores in general after Harding and Ito were in a downward projection after their fall GP events. Kristi meanwhile started the Olympic year with her best ever performance to win nationals, then went clean to win the SP at the Olympics. I do think she was viewed as the complete package, which neither Ito or Harding were considred, so if they didn't hit to their potential (or even came close to it as it was) then Yamaguchi was the bygone favorite. I do think she was overscored, even though she clearly deserved her Olympic gold medal. Ito and Harding just made it alot easier for the judges by underperforming.

    Another way of looking at is, if Ito hit her programs like she did at the 1989 worlds or Harding like 91 Skate America would Yamaguchi have any hope of winning even as being considered the "package". I honestly don't think she would be placed above those performances.

    Your points are great and you might well be right. Note I did vote for Ito so I am not sure at all on what I suggested.

    However I am looking at the 92 Olympics marks as a reference. Kristi with 2 major mistakes got 5.7s and 5.8s for technical merit and all 5.9s for artistic i mpression. Even those marks arent easy to beat for Ito and Harding already, although skating cleanly with a triple axel would certainly be possible as I have seen both get 5.9s and 6.0s for technical and 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation when clean with the big jump. Amazing how Harding's presentation scores go from like 5.3 without the triple axel to 5.9s with it, lol! I always believed a major mistake should be atleast .1 each and two would be atleast .1 on the artistic mark too. This would mean the judges giving 5.9s and 6.0s for technical and all 6.0s for artistic to Kristi had she gone clean though, and I dont believe that was happening so already the judges did not take what I believe were appropriate deductions in this place, which just shows they love her. However we have to assume higher than what she got for a clean skate dont we? Atleast 5.8s and 5.9s for technical and 5.9s with a couple 6.0s for presentation? Then if those were her marks I am not sure even a clean Ito or Harding with the triple axel could beat her, with the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. Maybe take a few judges, but not a majority.

    Then again maybe I am misreading the situation just looking at that one event. Maybe with Ito and Harding already out of gold contention in the short program they were determined to hand Kristi the long program right away as long as she did something credible as she was the only one left they could stomach winning. They didnt want to be stuck in a situation where by some miracle Nancy landed all 7 of her triples, or even 6, and they now had to give her the gold; or even worse Surya landed a clean quad plus 7 other clean triples with all the difficult combos she had planned, and they even had to give her the gold. So at that point Kristi landed the 2 lutzes, triple lutz-triple toe, and only 2 big misses, they were giving her the gold at that point no matter what; but had Tonya or Midori been higher after the short it would have been a different story with their marks for the skate she gave.

  19. #19
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    How can anyone vote Asada. 2010 Olympics proves even clean she sometimes would lose (her 2 only mistakes didnt cost her 23 points, there is no possible way). So she is eliminated. Kwan I can atleast see someone rationalizing the 98 Olympics was an aberration, or even if clean wasnt truly her best; and if they are a huge fanboy somehow deluded themselves she was always beating Slutskaya in every event in 2000-2002 or at the 2005 Worlds if going clean.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    Although it would be very close and I cant say I know for certain, I think a clean Kim would have gotten the nod over a clean Asada even in 06-07 and 07-08. I have two barometers. The Grand Prix final LP of 07-08 where Asada cleanly executed her super difficult program with a triple axel and two triple-triples. Kim fell on her triple loop in her program which had a 6 points lower base value to begin with, and lost the LP by less than a point showing without the fall it was easily hers despite nowhere near the difficulty of Asada. Then the short program of Worlds in 2007. Asada even if you give her another 9-10 points for her missed combination (3 points for the automatic -3, 4.5 points for the base value of a single loop vs a triple, and some lavish GOE and a bit of PCS for a non disruptive error which is probably more than she gets but just being extreme for arguments sake) she still loses the short program to Kim and her slightly easier triple flip-triple toe combination.
    In GPF 2007, Asada's 3A, 3F+3T got minus GOEs. And at that time, Kim had 7 triples and all 5 kind of triples including 3Lo. not only Asada, kim had also much more difficult jump layout than now.
    I think in 07-08, if both of two go clean, they would be very close. I can't sure who would win.

    In SP in 2007 Worlds, Their Jump base value difference was very small. kim- 3F-3T/3Lz/2A=18.8 Asada- 3F-3Lo/3L/2A=19.8
    difficulty difference in score was almost nonexisted. In 2006 SA, Asada had clean SP and got almost 69. I guess if both of two did clean SP in one competition, Kim would win in SP by small gap.
    but in FS, I am sure clean Asada would beat clean kim. kim's FS score was not that high at that season. Asada made world record.
    In overall I think in 06-07 season, clean Asada would beat clean kim

    In summary, I think 06-07 season, clean Asada would beat clean kim. In 07-08 season, they would very close
    So I don't think in both of seasons, clean kim was unbeatable.
    Last edited by karlon; 08-09-2013 at 07:04 PM.

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