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  1. #341

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    Still miffed at the general media attitude of "without Evan, everyone else is second-rate" which is distinctly unfair to all the skaters.


    Oh and Nick McCarvel screwed up. Jason is closer to 19 than 18, and he is NOT the youngest of the Olympic hopefuls; Joshua is (being 22 days younger than Jason). If you're gonna call Josh "almost 19", then Jason, who has his birthday this Saturday, practically IS 19!

    (And at the bit below the article that says "More Jeremy Abbott"...on a picture of Jason.)

  2. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Still miffed at the general media attitude of "without Evan, everyone else is second-rate" which is distinctly unfair to all the skaters.
    But they kinda are... Abbott won 1 Grand Prix 3 years ago. Rippon won 4CC four years ago (just before the last Olympic). Other than that, I cannot think of any of the US men won any major international (senior) events since the last Olympic.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    I started a separate news thread earlier today: Due to injury, Lysacek will not compete in the 2013-14 Olympic season

    Michelle Kwan wrote about some of the U.S. men who could make the Olympic team in the second half of her article today ("US Figure Skating has a great core of Olympic hopefuls like Jeremy Abbott, Max Aaron, Adam Rippon, and Jason Brown..."): http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/st...skating-121013

    ETA this excerpt by Liz Clarke in the Washington Post:

    Article link is posted in the Max Aaron fan thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post4076176
    Thanks for starting the thread, Sylvia. I thought of starting one last night - as I think this news deserves a thread of its own - but thought I might get slapped for it.

  4. #344
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    Twitter:

    Nick McCarvel ‏@NickMcCarvel 7m
    After Grand Prix season, @MaxTAaron says he's re-worked his free skate. "We moved jumps around and jump passes. I have new music choices."

  5. #345
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    That's exactly what I meant. You can't get around the age factor and the injuries that come with it, no matter how young you want your body to stay.
    (A facelift is still a facelift, nothing can bring youth back)

    And thank you for setting the record straight that Evan won DWTS. Why did you think he came in second?


    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    He was the REAL winner of that season of DWTS...the lady who "won" was a professional dancer.

    I think by "a face lift is still a face lift" scheffie meant that getting old is still getting old and there's no getting around it, no matter what you try.

  6. #346
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    I think that the up and coming skaters are what bring excitement to the world of figure skating. I can't wait to see Max, Adam, Jason and Joshua skate in Boston! They are first rate IMO.



    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Still miffed at the general media attitude of "without Evan, everyone else is second-rate" which is distinctly unfair to all the skaters.


    Oh and Nick McCarvel screwed up. Jason is closer to 19 than 18, and he is NOT the youngest of the Olympic hopefuls; Joshua is (being 22 days younger than Jason). If you're gonna call Josh "almost 19", then Jason, who has his birthday this Saturday, practically IS 19!

    (And at the bit below the article that says "More Jeremy Abbott"...on a picture of Jason.)

  7. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by scheffie View Post

    And thank you for setting the record straight that Evan won DWTS. Why did you think he came in second?
    Ah. Officially, Lysacek was 2nd on DWTS. The official winner of that season was Nicole Scherzinger. But there were many who felt her inclusion in the contest was completely unfair and, having said that, Lysacek should have won. But he didn't. Which sucked at the time. (And still does a bit, but he was a jerk to Anna in the last week and that would have messed with his votes a little, I guess.)

  8. #348
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    U.S. men move on in Lysacek's absence
    By Nick Zaccardi,
    NBC OlympicTalk

    Dec 12, 1:00pm EST

    Excerpts:

    The end of Evan Lysacek‘s Olympic comeback leaves a gaping hole for U.S. men’s figure skaters to attempt to fill.
    There will be one fewer opponent for those precious berths, but reigning U.S. champion Max Aaron said he was disappointed not to be able to compete against Lysacek.

    “Even here, sitting next to him in the locker room I’m like, ‘Oh my god it’s Evan,’” Aaron said at the Tribute To American Legends Of The Ice event in East Rutherford, N.J., on Wednesday. Lysacek made an appearance at the event.
    “My game plan hasn’t changed,” Rippon said. “I’ve enjoyed training with Evan here and there since we’re both in Southern California and we run into each other. I’m still going to go out there and do everything that I can to skate my very best.”
    - See more at: http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/us-m....8CCDUXoN.dpuf
    Last edited by dardar1126; 12-12-2013 at 11:39 PM.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Frankly, there is nothing Abbott could've done in either 2011 or 2012 Worlds to secure a 3d spot for the US: Dornbush finished 9th in 2011. Adding Abbott to the mix above Dornbush would've pushed him down to 10th, meaning Abbott needed to medal for the US to continue having 3 spots into 2012
    Possibly, but there's really no way to prove what would have happened one way or the other. Any difference in team makeup can not presuppose what would have definitely happened with placements. Who knows? What is true is that Abbott had success on the GP circuit that season (2010-2011). Altho' he came in 5th at GPF, he won the Cup of China and came in third at the Cup of Russia. Certainly Abbott was well known and appreciated to a degree by international judges. As a veteran on the U.S. team, Abbott would have pulled more rep than Bradley, Dornbush and Miner did.

    As it was, the international judges in Moscow (instead of in Japan due to emergency change in venue) greeted Bradley, Dornbush and Miner with a collective back of the hand slap/ dismissal (unfairly I would add). Dornbush and Miner performed well enough to place higher, and Bradley (though not at his best) was not horrible either. USFS looked foolish and desperate though trying to politick for Bradley to be treated as a potential top five in the World. To make even the top eight, he would have had to skate perfectly. Russians seem to be able to successfully politick and get their guys top recognition consistently (veterans and newbies), but U.S. these days seemingly cannot politick effectively. Yes, the quad and changing competitive landscape factors in. But I also believe that the U.S. dissing their most talented men instead of highly supporting everyone makes a difference.

    U.S. guys need the opportunity to build momentum by having the chance to go to Worlds more consistently. USFS could have hedged bets by sending a solid veteran in Abbott along with the newbie out of Juniors in Dornbush (a Jr. GPF winner); the popular, talented and charismatic veteran with some middling international success in Bradley (he'd been a bronze medal winner at Skate Canada, but no other senior international wins above fourth place; plus at two prior trips to Worlds, he'd placed 15th and 18th). Ross Miner in 2011 probably would still have felt he'd had a successful Nats if he'd come in 4th by .19. Also, if 3 spots had been maintained at Worlds somehow in 2011, and Ross came in third again at Nats, as he did in 2012, Ross would have been able to debut at 2012 Worlds. Figure skating is endlessly debatable, but of course, we can't change the past.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 12-13-2013 at 09:59 PM. Reason: Addt'l thoughts plus "secure" not that different from "maintain" -- my bad

  10. #350
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    Edited initial post -- duplicated by mistake
    Last edited by aftershocks; 12-13-2013 at 09:41 PM.

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Dornbush and Miner performed well enough to place higher, and Bradley (though not at his best) was not horrible either. USFS looked foolish and desperate though trying to politick for Bradley to be treated as a potential top five in the World. Russians can do that with their guys (veterans and newbies) apparently, but U.S. these days seemingly cannot effectively.
    Politicking cannot be effective if the skater does not deliver the goods. If Bradley had executed all of his planned jumps, he probably could have finished in the Top Five, but he didn't. I don't think that he ever did execute all of his planned jumps in any significant competition, except maybe for U.S. Nationals in 2007.

    And this holds true for Russian skaters just as much as their American counterparts. That's why only one Russian will be competing in the Men's competition at the Olympics.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Politicking cannot be effective if the skater does not deliver the goods. If Bradley had executed all of his planned jumps, he probably could have finished in the Top Five, but he didn't. I don't think that he ever did execute all of his planned jumps in any significant competition, except maybe for U.S. Nationals in 2007.

    And this holds true for Russian skaters just as much as their American counterparts. That's why only one Russian will be competing in the Men's competition at the Olympics.
    Yes, it's very true Vagabond that skaters have to consistently deliver the goods. For example, of course Gachinski had the quad in 2011, but still I think Gachinski got a lot of OTT attention and promotion as a big-time contender in his senior Worlds debut. Obviously, Gachinski was fortunate that Worlds were taking place in Moscow that year. IMO, Gachinski was/is not a very polished skater (he mainly was able to land the jumps), yet he received overly high marks in his Worlds senior debut for skating clean in his own country, whilst Dornbush and Miner were snubbed even with skating cleanly and with better skating skills than Gachinski. Quad be damned!

    Sure lots of factors are involved and guys must perform well, but if you aren't given encouragement and a vote of confidence, it's quite difficult to build momentum due to the depth of talent in the U.S. The fact that Russian men currently only have one spot available is partly due to Gachinski's subsequent problems (completely losing steadiness and confidence on his jumps, etc.), but also because for some reason there are currently not a great many young Russian males taking up figure skating. Terry Gannon and Johnny Weir spoke about some of the possible reasons for this Russian drought on the men's side during GP commentary this season.

    Regarding Ryan Bradley: It's great that he has that U.S. National championship. I was happy for him when he won. And I think Ryan was stoked about the opportunity to skate at a Worlds scheduled in Japan because he was well-known and highly regarded there around that time after having appearing with Stephane Lambiel in a popular Japanese commercial for Fuji Xerox.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxeVo...F3FFC422BBE741

    Unfortunately for Ryan B, the Russian audience at the relocated 2011 Worlds didn't seem to get the humorous parody of his 2011 fp, and he skated it rather flatly. Plus the factor of the delay to the start of Worlds that year may have hampered his training in the lead-up to Worlds. Despite hoping for a better placement for Ryan at the time, in retrospect I don't think Ryan truthfully had the chance to be top five even with landing quads, because international judges apparently lightly regarded some areas of Ryan's skating where he needed improvement (flexibility, polished edges, spins). Looking back at the sixteen-year-old Bradley at U.S. Nats in 2000, he seemed to have a bit more grace and elegance very ripe for being fully developed. But that didn't happen under Coach Z, plus Ryan also suffered from injuries for awhile after his senior Nats debut. He is notably a 3-time U.S. Collegiate champion with charm and charisma to die for.

    What could really hurt macho guys by taking up ballet?!

  13. #353

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    Back to the current season...

    Re. McCarvel's tweet posted above:
    After Grand Prix season, @MaxTAaron says he's re-worked his free skate. "We moved jumps around and jump passes. I have new music choices."
    Does this mean Lori Nichol has changed his Carmen selections or Carmen itself, I wonder?
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  14. #354
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    Sounds to me as if Max means they chose new music selections from Carmen. Hope that
    reworking his jump placement will help Max regain his consistency.

  15. #355

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    I think the major issue for Ryan Bradley was that his skating skills didn't match his ability to perform and the choreography of his programs - if he had two amazing programs he might have been top 5 but he had very little room for error. His programs were probably not the best for a Russian audience and did seem flat compared to the US Nationals.
    When watching live I like everyone to skate clean - but on television the occasional trainwreck can be fun.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingguy View Post
    I think the major issue for Ryan Bradley was that his skating skills didn't match his ability to perform and the choreography of his programs - if he had two amazing programs he might have been top 5 but he had very little room for error. His programs were probably not the best for a Russian audience and did seem flat compared to the US Nationals.
    As I recall, Ryan Bradley skated at worlds with a broken toe (an off-ice injury).

  17. #357

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    What could really hurt macho guys by taking up ballet?!
    But, but, but. . . they might turn into NON-MACHO GUYS!!! Goodness knows we can't have a single man in this country who would NOT conform to gender norms. (Nor a woman either, if it comes to that.) Come on, don't you know that ballet is one of the biggest tools of the great Master Plan Gay Agenda??

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingguy View Post
    I think the major issue for Ryan Bradley was that his skating skills didn't match his ability to perform and the choreography of his programs - if he had two amazing programs he might have been top 5 but he had very little room for error. His programs were probably not the best for a Russian audience and did seem flat compared to the US Nationals.
    This is also true. He's a great performer and so much fun, but his actual *skating* is just not top quality. Though when he has the jumps they are huge and amazing.
    BARK LESS. WAG MORE.

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingguy View Post
    I think the major issue for Ryan Bradley was that his skating skills didn't match his ability to perform and the choreography of his programs - if he had two amazing programs he might have been top 5 but he had very little room for error. His programs were probably not the best for a Russian audience and did seem flat compared to the US Nationals.
    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    But, but, but. . . they might turn into NON-MACHO GUYS!!! Goodness knows we can't have a single man in this country who would NOT conform to gender norms. (Nor a woman either, if it comes to that.) Come on, don't you know that ballet is one of the biggest tools of the great Master Plan Gay Agenda??


    This is also true. He's a great performer and so much fun, but his actual *skating* is just not top quality. Though when he has the jumps they are huge and amazing.
    Yep, and yep! That's what I'm talking about. But as I said, when he was a sixteen-year-old debuting in seniors at Nationals in 2000, Ryan actually appeared to possess a latent elegance and grace that was never fully developed as he further matured. I think the focus under Coach Z remained on jumps (and the technical aspect) moreso than on increasing flexibility and fine-tuning grace and expressive movement. Ryan's overall physique and long legs totally made him a great candidate for ballet training. OMG, what Tatiana Tarasova might have wrought if she'd have had Ryan B in her clutches!

    However, I wouldn't say that Ryan's skating is not "top quality," just that his skating skills needed further improvement (mastery of edges, and improving spins and flexibility, paying more attention to expressive movement qualities through ballet training).

    OTOH, the main thing to point out IMO: If Gachinski could grab a bronze, why not Ryan B too (if he'd skated cleanly)! Because let's face it! Gachinski sure had nothing on Ryan B at that point in 2011. Ryan was a veteran who'd been to Worlds before and Ryan could land quads and he had a similar raw and unpolished skating style to that of Gachinski. The difference is in how politically the Russian fed and Russian skaters seem to always receive upper hand and recognition even when they are just breaking into senior ranks (as was Gachinski).

    Another recent example of the skewed view about "ballet" being anathema to macho is in a throwaway comment Evan made. I think Evan is absolutely correct in everything he said in the below recent interview, except it simply isn't true that ballet equates to "sissy," which seems to be his inference. Ballet is also one of the most toughest of disciplines that is extremely physical, difficult and requires enormous hard work and dedication. The point is to make ballet moves look effortless which is very similar to what figure skating is supposed to look like too on the ice, altho' it doesn't today with the focus on grinding out quads and more quads and rushing frenziedly across the ice.

    http://www.today.com/sochi/exclusive...chi-2D11717316

    Quote excerpted from above interview:

    The jumps and the physicality of the sport are incredible and I think people don’t know that. They think it looks like ballet but really it is among the most difficult and physical sports in the world. The torque is immense. It is sometimes up to a 100 times your body weight on torque. The training and the discipline that it takes are incredible. I think people expect that to be an OGM you have to work hard and be dedicated, but the level of sacrifice and discipline to live that lifestyle are immense and I can’t even put it into words. But it is what I love and I’ve had some of the best moments of my life representing the U.S.

  19. #359

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.H.Black View Post
    Thanks for starting the [Lysacek] thread, Sylvia. I thought of starting one last night - as I think this news deserves a thread of its own - but thought I might get slapped for it.
    No problem. Anyone want to start a Ryan Bradley discussion thread?
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  20. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Yep, and yep! That's what I'm talking about. But as I said, when he was a sixteen-year-old debuting in seniors at Nationals in 2000, Ryan actually appeared to possess a latent elegance and grace that was never fully developed as he further matured. I think the focus under Coach Z remained on jumps (and the technical aspect) moreso than on increasing flexibility and fine-tuning grace and expressive movement. Ryan's overall physique and long legs totally made him a great candidate for ballet training. OMG, what Tatiana Tarasova might have wrought if she'd have had Ryan B in her clutches!

    However, I wouldn't say that Ryan's skating is not "top quality," just that his skating skills needed further improvement (mastery of edges, and improving spins and flexibility, paying more attention to expressive movement qualities through ballet training).

    OTOH, the main thing to point out IMO: If Gachinski could grab a bronze, why not Ryan B too (if he'd skated cleanly)! Because let's face it! Gachinski sure had nothing on Ryan B at that point in 2011. Ryan was a veteran who'd been to Worlds before and Ryan could land quads and he had a similar raw and unpolished skating style to that of Gachinski. The difference is in how politically the Russian fed and Russian skaters seem to always receive upper hand and recognition even when they are just breaking into senior ranks (as was Gachinski).

    Another recent example of the skewed view about "ballet" being anathema to macho is in a throwaway comment Evan made. I think Evan is absolutely correct in everything he said in the below recent interview, except it simply isn't true that ballet equates to "sissy," which seems to be his inference. Ballet is also one of the most toughest of disciplines that is extremely physical, difficult and requires enormous hard work and dedication. The point is to make ballet moves look effortless which is very similar to what figure skating is supposed to look like too on the ice, altho' it doesn't today with the focus on grinding out quads and more quads and rushing frenziedly across the ice.

    http://www.today.com/sochi/exclusive...chi-2D11717316

    Quote excerpted from above interview:
    Yep, it's too bad. As if ballet itself isn't itself difficult and physical. Honestly, what kind of conditioning do people think it takes to get through a 2-hour ballet? Just because they MAKE it look easy and smile the whole way. . . (figure skating has the same problem).

    I heard in a manleywoman interview with a choreographer who'd worked with Evan that Evan's mom was, apparently, VERY concerned about Evan looking "sissy." Which i guess Evan picked up on--that fear of either looking effeminate or being perceived as effeminate. It's unfortunate we still have problems with that perception, and yeah, Ryan could have been quite elegant had Tom Z not taken him in the usual Tom Z direction of all jumps & less focus on everything else.

    3 weeks until the nail-biter of US nationals. . . .
    BARK LESS. WAG MORE.

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