View Poll Results: Better skater- Kim or Kwan

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  • Kwan

    105 43.21%
  • Kim

    138 56.79%
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I can think of a skater Kim could not have beaten even if Kim had all the triples.
    and who would that be? It wouldnt be based on anything whomever it is ever did in an Olympics. Kim's Vancouver performance would have easily won any Olympics in history. There might be other events you could argue her losing with that (although even that is difficult) but not an Olympics that has ever occured.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    @kwanoverrated
    Too bad Yuna didn't compete against the Mao you're talking about at the Olympics. Her underrotations are also a major issue under CoP, something that would have not hurt her as much under 6.0.
    Lets put it in simple forms for you. Kim skated right away Mao's outstanding short program, which was far superior to Lipinski's or even Kwan's short programs from Nagano. She beat it handily. Kim skated before Mao in the LP and still did what she did. Mao's LP from Vancouver might not have been better than Lipinski's in Nagano due to the 2 mistakes, but Kim did not know that she would have 2 mistakes, and without those 2 mistakes her performance would have easily trumped Lipinski form Nagano, yet still easily lost to Kim. Kim had already faced the pressure of skating after a great Mao in the short, and already ensured herself the gold medal before Mao even skated in the LP even had Mao delivered her potential best (which is much better than Tara's actual best which only won in Nagano since Kwan failed to produce hers). So really your point about tougher competition as an excuse for why Kwan doesnt have an Olympic Gold and Kim does is bollocks.

    Anyway the Vancouver field was about 10 times deeper than the Nagano field which had 2 great skaters and a bunch of nothing after that. Kwan and Lipinski could have fallen 4 times and still won gold and silve.r People today call Vancouver the best ladies Olympic event, maybe the best Olympic ladies skating event in history, and Kim won it by a whopping margin. There is no way to even attempt to belittle that.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    and Kim does is bollocks.
    Don't be too hard on her; she tries her best.....
    Be with me always—take any form—drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you! Oh, God! it is unutterable! I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!"

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    and who would that be? It wouldnt be based on anything whomever it is ever did in an Olympics. Kim's Vancouver performance would have easily won any Olympics in history. There might be other events you could argue her losing with that (although even that is difficult) but not an Olympics that has ever occured.
    Could she have beaten Trixi Schuba at figures?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Could she have beaten Trixi Schuba at figures?
    Well Seyfert didnt at the 68, 69, or 70 Worlds and still beat Schuba easily so who says she would have to. She just would have to not be really bad at them like Janet Lynn was.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Well Seyfert didnt at the 68, 69, or 70 Worlds and still beat Schuba easily so who says she would have to. She just would have to not be really bad at them like Janet Lynn was.
    And you do not think these results had anything to do with Jutta Mueller being Gabby's mother and coach.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    IMO the only things Kim has over Kwan are- 1) An OGM, 2) a 3Lz-3t combination.
    and a great triple flip-triple toe combination, the ability to do a whole variety of jump combinations with ease while Kwan cant do any difficult combinations besides a triple toe-triple toe, bigger and much higher quality jumps than Kwan, better and more complex spins, much more speed and power and ice coverge, and arguably more flow and fluidity.

    Skating wise I find all Kwan has over Kim is more perfect positions, better feet and turnout, and slightly better spirals. Anything else Kim can match or best her in. She is every bit as musical, she skates with as much soul and passion, she is as elegant and graceful in the way she moves around while arguably being more fluid, her choreography is just as strong as younger Kwan and much stronger than older Kwan, her footwork is just as strong, her field moves too, and her basics and edge quality or as strong or stronger (probably stronger seeing how much more easily she can build up huge speed and change directions doing complex choreography while not even pushing for it).

    As for nothing other than the OGM is 3 Grand Prix final titles vs only 1 nothing? Kim's greater dominance of the general seasons over the years is nothing. Kim skating in and winning Four Continents once while Kwan never bothered to compete in or win it is nothing. If so then you obviously believe nothing at all matters besides Olympics and Worlds which would negate any value of Kwan's U.S titles or anything else too, and in which case Kwan has nothing over Kim besides more World titles, just as Kim has nothing besides the OGM.


    She had many signature moves (e.g. COE spiral, falling leafs). Right now I can't think of one for Kim, although she is a beautiful skater and artist too.
    Kim's triple lutz-triple toe and triple flip-triple toe combinations, which she doesnt include both at once only since the many ways stupid rules dont reward, are both signature moves for her. She didnt invent those, just like Kwan did not invent either of the moves you pointed out, but nobody in skating history ever did those incredibly difficult combinations as often or as easily or as well as her, not even Ito or Harding. For years she did those with huge speed, huge flow out, ease, and practically never missing one, and included one in every program.

    If inventing moves or having signature moves makes you better skater or legend than Karen Magnussen must be the best skater ever. She has 5 or 6 original moves she invented, yet she is overshadowed in her own era by Lynn and Seyfert as a freeskater. Sasha Cohen and Shizuka probably has created more original moves than either Kwan or Kim too.


    and we wouldn't be seeing a lopsided win for Kim in this poll.
    The poll isnt lopsided. Kwan has over 40% of votes. People see them as very close. What is the problem.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    And you do not think these results had anything to do with Jutta Mueller being Gabby's mother and coach.
    And Trixi wasn't at her peak in those years--not to mention the old practice of holding skaters back. Could Yu Na have beaten Peggy Fleming at figures in '68? Would she have bothered learning the 3-3 when figures were 60% of the score? You just can't compare one era to another.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Kwan was just 14 when she first competed at worlds (1995) and narrowly missed a bronze (only because she was a little girl, even though she skated the cleanest program). She never failed to medal at worlds until 2005, when injuries finally caught up with her. So let us see how Yu na does 10 years after her first appearance.
    Well Kim probably would have won the 2006 Worlds over Meissner who she never came close to losing to as a junior or senior skater had she been allowed to skate. Or been 2nd posisbly to Mao had she also been. Either way Kim in 2006 was atleast as strong a skater and medal caliber threat as Kwan in 1995 who skated her best at Worlds and still didnt medal. So if we use Kwan 95 as her starting point and 2006 for Kim, and Kwan' finish point as 2005. Well seeing as that would only mean 2016 for Kim, Kim at that point would probably be still winning gold or silver at Worlds if she chooses to compete. Seeing how dominant she still is, does anyone really think she wouldnt still be on top and fighting for gold in just 2 or 3 years if she even wanted to compete. Not likely. By 2004 and 2005 Kwan was only a contender for bronze.

    Kim after next year will probably have 2 Olympic Golds so no motivation to skate 10 or 12 years after her first medals, but if she did she would do just fine.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    And Trixi wasn't at her peak in those years--not to mention the old practice of holding skaters back. Could Yu Na have beaten Peggy Fleming at figures in '68? Would she have bothered learning the 3-3 when figures were 60% of the score? You just can't compare one era to another.
    Fleming would have easily beaten Schuba had she stayed around. She was just as strong or stronger in figures and blew away Schuba in free skating. Schuba was lucky Fleming and Seyfert both retired early and her main rivals were all so weak in figures.

  11. #91
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    I think Kim is much more dominant in her era compared to Kwans era. Depending on how this season pans out she will be a much more dominant skater than Kwan.

    Not to belittle Kwan at all though, because she had to beat some incredible skaters and performances over the years such as Chen in 96, Slutskaya in 00-01, Butyrskaya and Cohen. She also skated clean in many many high level competitions, which takes incredible skill all on its own.

  12. #92
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    Well Kwan has 5 World titles to only 2 for Kim so I wouldnt say Kim is much more dominant. I think overall they are about equal dominance, not one way more than the other like the biased fans of both try either way to argue this thread. They each have things over the other in that aspect. I think a clean Kim is far more unbeatable for her rivals than a clean Kwan, but Kwan is more consistent than Kim. She does skate cleanly more often, which is why Kim has lost Worlds too many times for what she should have.

    I think Kwan has like 15 clean competitions and Kim only 4 or 5. That is one big edge for Kwan and why she has many more World titles despite that her clean skating is much more beatable than Kim's would be.

  13. #93

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    Yu-Na has like no competition though. Mao and Carolina fall every time they compete. She is dominant because she completes her elements and her rivals always screw up. And when she is not "on", people like Miki Ando can win two world championships. This is the argument that is said about Michelle all the time, but it is also true for Yu-Na.

  14. #94
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    Well much of her career Kwan also had no competition. Lipinski in 97-98 although it was mostly Kwan's bad slump that even made Tara relevant to that level in 97, and Slutskaya in 2000-2002 and that is it. Who else was a threat to her. Asada atleast seemed some threat to Kim her whole career, and Ando and Kostner were for various or extended periods of time, and all those are better skaters than anyone Kwan faced besides Lipinski or Slutskaya.

    Was that Kwan and Kim being so great or their competition being that lacking. It is hard to say. It seems in general the ladies are more dominant and have less competition than the men do.

  15. #95

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    I think it is a combination of both. They were/are both able to deliver programs when it counts (which I think in Kwan's case is very underrated) and their competition most of the time could not. Having the ability to "go for it" is a huge part of being a champion.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by briantoronto View Post
    Well much of her career Kwan also had no competition. Lipinski in 97-98 although it was mostly Kwan's bad slump that even made Tara relevant to that level in 97, and Slutskaya in 2000-2002 and that is it. Who else was a threat to her. Asada atleast seemed some threat to Kim her whole career, and Ando and Kostner were for various or extended periods of time, and all those are better skaters than anyone Kwan faced besides Lipinski or Slutskaya.

    Was that Kwan and Kim being so great or their competition being that lacking. It is hard to say. It seems in general the ladies are more dominant and have less competition than the men do.
    How is Chen in 95-96 not considered a great rival to Kwan. Chen was a bit of a headcase that season, but no doubt she was one of Kwan's great rivals then. No tto mention their skating is much more easily comparable than either Lipinski or Slutskaya who were relying soley on their jumps to beat Kwan (well Irina did get better artistically in the 00s but imo she was overrated in that department even at her best). The fact that Kwan was able to beat defending world champ Chen at worlds, and Kwan skating as well as she did really cemented her status in the sport.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy sullivan View Post
    All I know is that I have watched and continue to watch many of Michelle's classic programs multiple times - and am just as compelled by them each time I see them as I was the first time I saw them. I feel the same chill and enjoyment and inspiration and I never tire of them. I think YuNa is a magnificent skater - but the only program of hers I have ever watched more than once was her olympic LP - and that I watched twice and while it was really good - I have never had the impulse to watch it again. There is something about Michelle's performances - especially her classic clean skates- that I cannot quantify and never tire of. I know it is the feeling they inspire in me, and something about her ability to embody emotion on ice entwined with her amazing skill and consistancy under pressure - that is mesmerizing. For these reasons- until I find another skater that can make me feel that way - she is the greatest skater of any that I have seen.
    My feelings exactly ... and thanks for sharing how you feel about Michelle's skating.


    To those who feel something special when you watch Yu Na, enjoy and treasure the moments at upcoming Olympics.

  18. #98
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    If Kim had skated pre Kwan then Kwan would have been "better" as Kim would have been her idol to look up to and to surpass. Since its the other way around, Kim has surpassed Kwan technically but Kwan has had much longer skating career considering the number of years during which she medalled. Plus Kwan's numerous artistic and expressive skates far outnumber Kim's current number of same. One Oly gold doesn't negate Kwan's reign as ice queen during her years of skating. That said, Kim is the new ice queen.

    It's likely people voted per era they watched top level figure skating.

  19. #99
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    Alot of the passion and heart talk is subjective to what an individual feels. Kwan probably moves alot of people but I mostly found her plastered smile look kind of forced and I didnt really enjoy it and I wasnt moved. I find Kim skates with more genuine passion and heart, and it doesnt feel forced or put on. Like her Les Miserables program at Worlds this year, she immediately feels the music and program from the opening note but it feels genuine while Kwan with the plastered smile and the smirals kind of felt fake to me. To each their own.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by briantoronto View Post
    Well much of her career Kwan also had no competition. Lipinski in 97-98 although it was mostly Kwan's bad slump that even made Tara relevant to that level in 97, and Slutskaya in 2000-2002 and that is it. Who else was a threat to her. Asada atleast seemed some threat to Kim her whole career, and Ando and Kostner were for various or extended periods of time, and all those are better skaters than anyone Kwan faced besides Lipinski or Slutskaya.
    This is so untrue. Michelle had to beat a World Champion who received 6.0's to win in 1996. At US Nationals, she faced not only Tara Lipinski but other skaters, like Sasha Cohen and even Sarah Hughes, who were viewed by many as "the future." I think the judges really wanted to give the National title to Sasha many times and Sasha did place over Michelle several times in the short program. But it was only Sasha's own mistakes (much as it is Kostner's mistakes nowadays) that kept her from the title. Irina Slutskaya was a formidable competitor because, unlike most skaters, she was determined to win. She won something like five European titles, didn't she, not to mention her success on the Grand Prix. She also had the full backing of the Russian federation. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Irina's skating, the judges liked her and were willing to give her high marks and place her over Kwan if she skated clean (see 2002 Worlds LP). Michelle herself has said that Irina was her strongest competitor. Yu Na is so far ahead of her closest competitors that it is she that really has no competition except herself.

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