View Poll Results: Better skater- Kim or Kwan

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  • Kwan

    105 43.21%
  • Kim

    138 56.79%
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVS View Post
    I'm say Mao with 3 triple axel plus great artistry as well is extremely difficult competior to beat, let alone all of the pressure/ expectation from her country, these are more greater than any pressure Kwan has faced
    Of course, american skaters get no pressure from USFSA
    And the problem with Mao is that she has her 3Axel, but a lot of underrotations that leave a lot of points

  2. #62
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    Mao without her 2 mistakes at the 2010 Olympics would have easily beaten either Tara or Michelle at the 98 Olympics. Tara skated her best but Mao is a much better all around skater than Tara. Yet Kim would have still easily beaten Mao even without those 2 mistakes. Kim from Vancouver would have easily won any Olympics, so there is no even indirect way to lowball her Olympic competition in comparision to anyone, but not surprised some would be desperate enough to try.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Kim from Vancouver would have easily won any Olympics, so there is no even indirect way to lowball her Olympic competition in comparision to anyone, but not surprised some would be desperate enough to try.
    I can think of a skater Kim could not have beaten even if Kim had all the triples.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I can think of a skater Kim could not have beaten even if Kim had all the triples.
    91 Harding? Ito? Yamaguchi?

  5. #65
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    @kwanoverrated
    Too bad Yuna didn't compete against the Mao you're talking about at the Olympics. Her underrotations are also a major issue under CoP, something that would have not hurt her as much under 6.0.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Of course, american skaters get no pressure from USFSA
    I did NOT say Kwan has NO pressure, just NO comparison. USFSA is nothing if we compare them to the whole Korea nation with 50 millions people
    Last edited by HVS; 08-31-2013 at 04:24 AM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    91 Harding? Ito? Yamaguchi?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTwv03_sufg

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    That is, formally speaking, a fair point. But as we know, these types of questions almost always serve as jumping-off platforms, in which the commentary quickly evolves and broadens out in a discursive way. It's not an interrogation with the IRS or the police ("stick to the facts, ma'am...").

    The question regarding Yuna was also typically broad (something along the lines of 'how did you get involved and what was it like working with her'), but through the usual chain of free-associative-speaking-out-loud, Jeff started moving away from the original question, barely touching on what it was like working with her, to, instead, talk in detail about the changes he saw after she started working with David Wilson, the particular aesthetic qualities that he quite clearly admires in Yuna, and so on. This pattern is par for the course for interviews as a format, and makes for interesting commentary.

    While acknowledging your point, Jeffrey answered the Mao question in a very narrow way, although it was quite evident from the way Jenny built up the question at the beginning that this was also supposed to be a highlight moment. He kept circling the same point, that she was polite and kind ("everything you'd expect a Japanese woman to be", or something to that effect), really nice, and actually I don't really know her at all, and doesn't have a mean bone in her body, and, hardworking, and sweet, and, oh, did I mention she was nice...? At the end, both Jenny and Dave were looking away somewhat awkwardly.

    I just thought that the almost "no comment" nature of the comment, and the lack of any evolution and development in the response, was somewhat curious.

    What I really got out of that is that Mao, despite a sunny and friendly public persona, is probably just as hard to get to really know as the supposedly (if we are to believe the descriptions of some of her detractors) more imperious Yuna. Which makes sense to me. They are both superstars, and a bland sunniness is just as serviceable (and is sometimes better) as armor against a prying world as a seemingly aloof reserve.

    My main point, though, was that, by comparison, Jeff's recounting of Yuna's aesthetics was full-throated, done with pith and point (by way of contrast with some of the opinions on this thread).

    I think you are perhaps looking too much into it. Jeff comments were in line with the questions asked about each skater. He was asked about Yuna because he worked on the choreography of one of her earlier programs. So it is natural for him to make comments from the point of view of a choreographer. In addition, he obviously admires Wilson's work very much and his success with Yuna is so well-known. The question about Mao from Jenny was specifically in regards to her off-ice personality and Jeff answered the question accordingly. Also, his answers for each skater shows type of collaboration he had with them. His responses about Yuna are in line with what a choreographer would say about a skater with whom he had worked. Although he does choreography for Mao's ice show, they were group numbers and that is quite different from an actual competitive program for one skater. Thus, his responses are more in line with what co-workers would say about each other. You could also see this pattern with other skaters he has worked one on one with choreography (Yuzuru and Liza). His comments are more specific in nature.
    Last edited by miki88; 08-31-2013 at 03:53 PM.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Not the one I was thinking of but excellent choice.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I think you are perhaps looking too much into it. Jeff comments were in line with the questions asked about each skater. He was asked about Yuna because he worked on the choreography of one of her earlier programs. So it is natural for him to make comments from the point of view of a choreographer. In addition, he obviously admires Wilson's work very much and his success with Yuna is so well-known. The question about Mao from Jenny was specifically in regards to her off-ice personality and Jeff answered the question accordingly. Also, his answers for each skater shows type of collaboration he had with them. His responses about Yuna are in line with what a choreographer would say about a skater with whom he had worked. Although he does choreography for Mao's ice show, they were group numbers and that is quite different from an actual competitive program for one skater. Thus, his responses are more in line with what co-workers would say about each other. You could also see this pattern with other skaters he has worked one on one with choreography (Yuzuru and Liza). His comments are more specific in nature.
    I am a bit perplexed as to who I'm conversing with. Whatever happened to this poster:

    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Wow at how much Yuna's votes shot up overnight!




    It's a declarative statement out of personal opinion, which I don't think I need to elaborate on. And eloquence doesn't necessarily erase subjectivity, since all posts here are essentially opinions.
    I have always disagreed with the statement above. What surprises me is that, evidently, you now seem to similarly disagree. You will forgive me if I refrain from more substantive reply until I think about what it all means. Or do I look too much into it?

  11. #71
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    Yuna is a much better jumper and faster. Basic skating they are about equal. Artistry Michelle is ahead, although Yuna is still strong there as well.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    I am a bit perplexed as to who I'm conversing with. Whatever happened to this poster:


    I have always disagreed with the statement above. What surprises me is that, evidently, you now seem to similarly disagree. You will forgive me if I refrain from more substantive reply until I think about what it all means. Or do I look too much into it?
    Yes

  13. #73
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    I think a much more important question is this: What figure skater will make the greatest difference for good in the world over the next fifty years?

    The answer is, Michelle Kwan will. Indeed, that future is unfolding even now.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickInSanJose View Post
    I think a much more important question is this: What figure skater will make the greatest difference for good in the world over the next fifty years?

    The answer is, Michelle Kwan will. Indeed, that future is unfolding even now.
    I'm a big Kwan fan too, but let's not go overboard. I don't think it's fair to compare post-skating lives of any skaters because people have their own paths. By comparing the post-skating careers of two skaters in a competitive way, we're going into territory where we're judging people's personal life choices and deeming one person a "winner" in life. I just don't think that's right. Plus, Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan are in different stages in life, so it would not even be a fair comparison if we were to do that. Additionally, we don't know what's in store for Kwan in fifty years, so it's pretty presumptuous and bold to predict she'll "make the greatest difference for good in the world" even if she's doing good work now.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  15. #75

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    All I know is that I have watched and continue to watch many of Michelle's classic programs multiple times - and am just as compelled by them each time I see them as I was the first time I saw them. I feel the same chill and enjoyment and inspiration and I never tire of them. I think YuNa is a magnificent skater - but the only program of hers I have ever watched more than once was her olympic LP - and that I watched twice and while it was really good - I have never had the impulse to watch it again. There is something about Michelle's performances - especially her classic clean skates- that I cannot quantify and never tire of. I know it is the feeling they inspire in me, and something about her ability to embody emotion on ice entwined with her amazing skill and consistancy under pressure - that is mesmerizing. For these reasons- until I find another skater that can make me feel that way - she is the greatest skater of any that I have seen.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickInSanJose View Post
    I think a much more important question is this: What figure skater will make the greatest difference for good in the world over the next fifty years?

    The answer is, Michelle Kwan will. Indeed, that future is unfolding even now.
    Anything's possible, but Kim has donated over $2m to charity, so I reckon she's winning that argument at the moment.
    Be with me always—take any form—drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you! Oh, God! it is unutterable! I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!"

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by orientalplane View Post
    Anything's possible, but Kim has donated over $2m to charity, so I reckon she's winning that argument at the moment.
    Sigh...
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Sigh...
    I'm sure this won't come as any surprise, given my sig line, but I think orientalplane has a point. ETA: Given that the post she responded to treated Kwan's future greatness as a dead cert, I think it's fine to point out something big that another skater has done, and, yes, even to follow that up with the assertion that she "reckon[s Kim] is winning the argument at the moment." For one thing, it might well have gone unsaid otherwise, despite the prolificness of many Kim fans here. For another, saying that it's certain that one skater will make more of a positive difference over the next fifty years than any other skater seems as dismissive of everyone in the latter group as it does adulatory of Kwan, so why shouldn't a fan of a different skater "strike back"? RickInSanJose might not have meant for his post to sound that way, but that's probably how it looks to some readers.
    Last edited by falling_dance; 09-01-2013 at 04:51 PM.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    For another, saying that it's certain that one skater will make more of a positive difference over the next fifty years than any other skater seems as dismissive of everyone in the latter group as it does adulatory of Kwan, so why shouldn't a fan of a different skater "strike back"?
    Well, I just found both comments to be off-putting for reasons I already stated in my response to RickinSanJose. That said, I do think you have a point in that orientalplane may have only responded in that way because the initial post called for it.

    However, the idea that anybody can really win in that sort of sphere is really twisting the idea of public service and charity. Maybe I'm just negative about it because I personally worked with people who did have underlying motivations for personal glory. On another note, I also think fans of figure skaters who choose to compare the post-lives of skaters as a way to continue some sort of weird rivalry is pretty perverse (like when a lot of Kwan fans try to demean any of her former rivals' post-skating lives despite the successes of her former rivals).
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  20. #80
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    There's no rivalry, weird or otherwise, as far as I'm concerned. Kwan and Kim are skaters of different eras; when Kwan's career was ending, Kim's was just taking off. In my opinion, Kwan was a great skater, and so is Kim. I thought RickinSanJose's post was quite absurd in its prediction (to state categorically that a certain situation as far ahead as 50 years will occur, when almost ANYTHING could happen) and thought I'd throw in a different opinion based on another facet of making the "greatest difference for good".
    Be with me always—take any form—drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you! Oh, God! it is unutterable! I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!"

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