View Poll Results: Better skater- Kim or Kwan

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  • Kwan

    105 43.21%
  • Kim

    138 56.79%
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  1. #121

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    Kwan, easily. Yu Na is a great skater but passionless and robotic.

    Can't wait for next poll: Amber Corwin vs. Sarah Hecken

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Lipinski, Hughes, and Slutskaya have better Olympic records, and Slutskaya has a much better Grand Prix final record and more overall grand prix wins. Had Slutskaya won one of the two Olympics she had a chance to win, or one of the two Worlds where she barely lost to Kwan, Kwan probably wouldnt even be considered the best skater of her own era. Kim is by far the best skater of her own era at each event, including Worlds, despite winning "only" twice.
    How does Slutskaya have a better record? They have the same exact medals except Kwan won the short programs of both of her Olympics. Surely, you're not counting Torino where Kwan withdrew before the ladies event even started. I'm not making a judgment on Slute here, but by using your measurement of counting medals, they're exactly the same.

    About Slutskaya being better had she won the Olympics or one World title (that she barely lost even though every time Kwan beat Slute at Worlds it was either by unanimous judging decision or a 7-2 split in Kwan's favor), that's like saying Kim wouldn't be the best ever if Mao had won the Olympics or at least one World title that she lost to Kim. Well, it didn't happen.

    Anyway, I don't think your title count methodology is infallible, but then I don't judge greatness solely based on a ranking of titles (which is based on one's subjective weight on each title that benefits their own favorite skater) and simply counting a number of titles. For one, it's not as objective as people pretend it is, and two, it's lazy and doesn't consider context of how skaters can win or lose titles based on luck, level of competition, and politics. Kim is exceptional because she has no weaknesses that COP dings her for. However, her competition absolutely helps her in that they do have major weaknesses that 6.0 wouldn't have punished nearly as severely and/or they have trouble landing at least 5 triples without major mistakes. I do think had the Kim/Asada rivalry played out under 6.0, Asada would have fared better than she has under COP as her triple axels would have probably given more weight and it would have had a bigger impact on the 6.0 style of scoring. Of course, one can say Kwan was lucky in that 6.0 didn't require the skating by numbers and the level 3-4 elements that COP requires.

    Basically, this argument is simplistic and only fuels each skater's passionate fanbase who are creating this artificial GOAT rivalry in order to validate their love for their favorite skater.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by invierno View Post
    That could be either because Yuna is that strong or her competitions are not so strong or both.


    To determine if Yuna's field is strong or not, we have to compare the field to field.
    Absolutely, I was thinking about that too, of course. But if Yu Na Kim is so strong that nobody can beat her when she is clean (even Mao with 3Axels, Joannie Rochette with 7 triples and strong basics, Miki Ando and her 3/3's and so on), there is no debate about who is better : Kwan or Kim, lol

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Absolutely, I was thinking about that too, of course. But if Yu Na Kim is so strong that nobody can beat her when she is clean (even Mao with 3Axels, Joannie Rochette with 7 triples and strong basics, Miki Ando and her 3/3's and so on), there is no debate about who is better : Kwan or Kim, lol
    But part of the reason she is so far ahead is the result of the judging system. She gains big points on GOE, in particular. Under 6.0, she wouldn't be so invincible, especially if she made mistakes, which she has been known to do. She also plans only 6 triples, which really would have opened the door if she popped a jump or fell. You could argue that her big GOE scores prove she is better, but I disagree, except on her 3-3 and her lutz. Her GOEs on spins and footwork and her other jumps should not be that much more--if more at all--than the GOE of some of her closest competitors.

  5. #125

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    delete-duplicate post

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    How does Slutskaya have a better record? They have the same exact medals except Kwan won the short programs of both of her Olympics. Surely, you're not counting Torino where Kwan withdrew before the ladies event even started. I'm not making a judgment on Slute here, but by using your measurement of counting medals, they're exactly the same.
    Well I was thinking Olympic silver + Olympic bronze + a 3rd top 5 from Olympics > Olympic silver + Olympic bronze. After all Olympics are such a prestigious event, even a top 5 has some value. So does that not make sense? I am not faulting Michelle for WDing from the 2006 Olympics, but I am also not going to pencil here in for a 4th or 5th (probably where she would have finished) and thus give her a 3rd top 5 at the Olympics to match Irina when she didnt compete. Call it Olympics Slutskaya = Kwan if you wish though, it really doesnt matter much. It doesnt change my overall point that even though Kwan is probably the best skater of her era, she isnt even the dominant skater of her era at most of the events. Olympics anyone with an Olympic Gold (so of her era that is Lipinski, Hughes, Arakawa is above), the Grand Prix final Slutskaya is way above, overall grand prix Slutskaya also has more victories I believe. So really that leaves only Worlds and her own Nationals where she was the best even in her own time. Now in comparision to Kim, Kim was by far the dominant skater of her own era at every venue- Olympics, Worlds (even if others have 2 titles her overall record is far and away the best), Grand Prix final, overall grand prix, her own Nationals.

    About Slutskaya being better had she won the Olympics or one World title (that she barely lost even though every time Kwan beat Slute at Worlds it was either by unanimous judging decision or a 7-2 split in Kwan's favor), that's like saying Kim wouldn't be the best ever if Mao had won the Olympics or at least one World title that she lost to Kim. Well, it didn't happen.
    Except Mao would not be the best skater of her era even if she had been allowed to compete in and won the 2006 Olympics or won an extra World title at say the 2007 Worlds. Kim overall would still have the better and by far more consistent record, as many or more Olympic and World titles, have much higher PBs. The way Mao would be the best skater of her era is if she beat Kim at the 2010 Olympics, leaving Kim with no OGM, but she never had the chance of doing that so it isnt even worth considering. Irina though had a huge chance of winning both the 2002 and 2006 Olympics, and a huge chance to take the 2000 and 2001 World titles from Kwan. Kwan also had a huge chance of winning the 2002 Olympics, but my point is Irina wasnt even that far from overtaking Michelle as best of that era. The gap between Kwan and her peers is less than the gap between Kim and hers currently, despite that Kim's peers are IMO better skaters than Kwan's.

    In other words for me Mao is a better skater than Irina, while Kostner and Ando are better skaters than Cohen or Hughes.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    But part of the reason she is so far ahead is the result of the judging system. She gains big points on GOE, in particular. Under 6.0, she wouldn't be so invincible, especially if she made mistakes, which she has been known to do. She also plans only 6 triples, which really would have opened the door if she popped a jump or fell. You could argue that her big GOE scores prove she is better, but I disagree, except on her 3-3 and her lutz. Her GOEs on spins and footwork and her other jumps should not be that much more--if more at all--than the GOE of some of her closest competitors.

    This is a consensus some believe but is incorrect. People dont seem to realize this, but Kim would have won alot more under 6.0 than COP. The only advantage Kim gained from COP is when she skates great her margins of victory are far more overwhelming. However break it down.

    Is there any major event Kim won under COP that she wouldnt have won under 6.0? Would she have lost any of the 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2013 Worlds, or any of her 3 Grand Prix final titles under 6.0 with all competitors doing the same performances? Definitely not, not even close in fact.

    Is there any major medal Kim won under COP that she wouldnt have won atleast as high under 6.0? Her 2007 Worlds bronze, 2008 Worlds bronze, 2010 and 2011 Worlds silver, either? I really dont think so, and the only one I could even see as a possability is the 2010 Worlds silver, but that was such an awful event that Kim probably would have won silver even with a 7th or 8th in the short and a 2nd or 1st in the free program, with Mao winning easily overall.

    On the other hand Kim would have for sure won the 2011 World title over Miki under 6.0. Even with her mistake in the short she would have been top 3 that year given the field. Then in the free program Yu Na with 5 triples including a huge triple-triple, similar or better quality elements, and much stronger artistry would have crushed Ando with only 5 triples and no triple-triple. It wouldnt have even been close, yet under COP Kim lost since her 2 mistakes lost more points than Ando's 1, and Ando's jump layout was COP whored and smarter.

    So under COP with the same field Kim already keeps all her titles/medals and has already added an additional World title. However she might have also won the 2008 Worlds under 6.0. This is less sure but it is certain she would have won the LP under 6.0 while Nakano even with URed jumps which would be noted but not crucified like under COP would probably have ben 2nd. So Kim if she still had a top 5 in the short would have won the title here as well.

    Kim has less the perception of being unbeatable or 30 point margins if she skates well under 6.0 than COP, but in terms of wins almost certainly would have won more than she has had it been 6.0 instead of COP.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Yes, if Mao could actually skate the programs she plans. She didn't at Vancouver and Yu Na still beat her in the long at 2010 Worlds, despite her triple axels. Under 6.0, they would probably be very close rivals, like Kwan and Slutskaya. But under the current system, Yu Na gains so much on GOE and PCS that no one can catch her unless she makes mistakes--and that is mistakes, plural.
    What events did Mao lose to Kim which she would have won under COP. Name a single one? I dont mean just a program, like Mao winning the LP at the 2010 Worlds under 6.0 which I totally agree with by the way, since she won the event convincingly over Kim so it really matters nothing in the end. I mean a whole competition.

    Also if Kim has no competiton and Kwan had such tough competition and so many threats like some of you are saying in this thread why has Kim only won Worlds twice and Kwan five times. That seems contradictory to the constant statements Kwan has so much super tough competition and threats, while Kim had none, yet Kwan still won Worlds over twice as often.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    This is so untrue. Michelle had to beat a World Champion who received 6.0's to win in 1996. At US Nationals, she faced not only Tara Lipinski but other skaters, like Sasha Cohen and even Sarah Hughes, who were viewed by many as "the future." I think the judges really wanted to give the National title to Sasha many times and Sasha did place over Michelle several times in the short program. But it was only Sasha's own mistakes (much as it is Kostner's mistakes nowadays) that kept her from the title. Irina Slutskaya was a formidable competitor because, unlike most skaters, she was determined to win. She won something like five European titles, didn't she, not to mention her success on the Grand Prix. She also had the full backing of the Russian federation. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Irina's skating, the judges liked her and were willing to give her high marks and place her over Kwan if she skated clean (see 2002 Worlds LP). Michelle herself has said that Irina was her strongest competitor. Yu Na is so far ahead of her closest competitors that it is she that really has no competition except herself.

    1. Sasha couldnt skate a clean long program if her life depended on it. In her whole career she couldnt make even 1, even when Michelle wasnt around.

    2. Even if Sasha skated cleanly, Michelle would have won everytime if she didnt fall atleast once. She was simply the better skater and much more popular with the USFSA and judges (especialy in the U.S) too. Kim's rivals like Asada, Kostner, Rochette, and even Ando (her jumping ability and consistency alone is enough to put her over Sasha) are also better skaters than Sasha, regardless of if they are that successful beating Kim or not. Asada at 15 and underaged for Olympics and Worlds was already having an easy time beating a prime Sasha.

    3. During Michelle's career her main competition was herself too. Did Michelle ever skate her best and lose? No. Did she ever skate cleanly and lose? Only once, the 98 Olympics, with an extremely slow and cautious performance and no 3-3 try. So no different than Kim. Yet for Kim this shows weak competition and not for Kwan. Double standards for sure.

    4. Skaters like Cohen and Hughes would be no threat to Kim either. Kim never has lost to skaters of that level since 2007.
    There isnt anyone Kwan competed against except maybe Irina who would be real competition for Yu Na, and Yu Na would have to make mistakes to ever lose to Irina, just like you say she does her own contemporaries.

  10. #130

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    I love the ignore list!

  11. #131
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    Before Worlds this year was Kwan. Worlds this year pushed Kim just over though. Olympics next year will probably push it further gap. Probably the two best women ladies skating of figure skating ever though. Both are absolutely amazing.

  12. #132

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    Its hard to say, I wish people wouldn't jinx Yu-na for the Olympics.

    I must say I don't think its right, to write of the Olympics just because your favorite didn't win it. Sometimes it can depend, i.e skater is injured/not at their prime for the Olympics. However Michelle had two golden opportunities and didn't win, Salt Lake especially. The Olympics are a huge pressure cooker and winning it, is a huge deal.
    In fairness I think its impossible to judge both.

    As for Kim having more advantages than Kwan because of "artistic developments" I really disagree... I think Kwan,as a young developing skater, had far more advantages. Kwan was a great skater but she wasn't the only artistic skater there ever was.

    Who people prefer is personal, I think.
    Last edited by bek; 09-07-2013 at 10:26 PM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    1. Sasha couldnt skate a clean long program if her life depended on it. In her whole career she couldnt make even 1, even when Michelle wasnt around.

    2. Even if Sasha skated cleanly, Michelle would have won everytime if she didnt fall atleast once. She was simply the better skater and much more popular with the USFSA and judges (especialy in the U.S) too. Kim's rivals like Asada, Kostner, Rochette, and even Ando (her jumping ability and consistency alone is enough to put her over Sasha) are also better skaters than Sasha, regardless of if they are that successful beating Kim or not. Asada at 15 and underaged for Olympics and Worlds was already having an easy time beating a prime Sasha.

    3. During Michelle's career her main competition was herself too. Did Michelle ever skate her best and lose? No. Did she ever skate cleanly and lose? Only once, the 98 Olympics, with an extremely slow and cautious performance and no 3-3 try. So no different than Kim. Yet for Kim this shows weak competition and not for Kwan. Double standards for sure.

    4. Skaters like Cohen and Hughes would be no threat to Kim either. Kim never has lost to skaters of that level since 2007.
    There isnt anyone Kwan competed against except maybe Irina who would be real competition for Yu Na, and Yu Na would have to make mistakes to ever lose to Irina, just like you say she does her own contemporaries.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    This is a consensus some believe but is incorrect. People dont seem to realize this, but Kim would have won alot more under 6.0 than COP. The only advantage Kim gained from COP is when she skates great her margins of victory are far more overwhelming. However break it down.

    Is there any major event Kim won under COP that she wouldnt have won under 6.0? Would she have lost any of the 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2013 Worlds, or any of her 3 Grand Prix final titles under 6.0 with all competitors doing the same performances? Definitely not, not even close in fact.

    Is there any major medal Kim won under COP that she wouldnt have won atleast as high under 6.0? Her 2007 Worlds bronze, 2008 Worlds bronze, 2010 and 2011 Worlds silver, either? I really dont think so, and the only one I could even see as a possability is the 2010 Worlds silver, but that was such an awful event that Kim probably would have won silver even with a 7th or 8th in the short and a 2nd or 1st in the free program, with Mao winning easily overall.

    On the other hand Kim would have for sure won the 2011 World title over Miki under 6.0. Even with her mistake in the short she would have been top 3 that year given the field. Then in the free program Yu Na with 5 triples including a huge triple-triple, similar or better quality elements, and much stronger artistry would have crushed Ando with only 5 triples and no triple-triple. It wouldnt have even been close, yet under COP Kim lost since her 2 mistakes lost more points than Ando's 1, and Ando's jump layout was COP whored and smarter.

    So under COP with the same field Kim already keeps all her titles/medals and has already added an additional World title. However she might have also won the 2008 Worlds under 6.0. This is less sure but it is certain she would have won the LP under 6.0 while Nakano even with URed jumps which would be noted but not crucified like under COP would probably have ben 2nd. So Kim if she still had a top 5 in the short would have won the title here as well.

    Kim has less the perception of being unbeatable or 30 point margins if she skates well under 6.0 than COP, but in terms of wins almost certainly would have won more than she has had it been 6.0 instead of COP.
    My lady, thou doth protest too much, methinks.

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    1. Sasha couldnt skate a clean long program if her life depended on it. In her whole career she couldnt make even 1, even when Michelle wasnt around.

    2. Even if Sasha skated cleanly, Michelle would have won everytime if she didnt fall atleast once. She was simply the better skater and much more popular with the USFSA and judges (especialy in the U.S) too. Kim's rivals like Asada, Kostner, Rochette, and even Ando (her jumping ability and consistency alone is enough to put her over Sasha) are also better skaters than Sasha, regardless of if they are that successful beating Kim or not. Asada at 15 and underaged for Olympics and Worlds was already having an easy time beating a prime Sasha.

    3. During Michelle's career her main competition was herself too. Did Michelle ever skate her best and lose? No. Did she ever skate cleanly and lose? Only once, the 98 Olympics, with an extremely slow and cautious performance and no 3-3 try. So no different than Kim. Yet for Kim this shows weak competition and not for Kwan. Double standards for sure.

    4. Skaters like Cohen and Hughes would be no threat to Kim either. Kim never has lost to skaters of that level since 2007.
    There isnt anyone Kwan competed against except maybe Irina who would be real competition for Yu Na, and Yu Na would have to make mistakes to ever lose to Irina, just like you say she does her own contemporaries.
    Once again, my lady, thou doth protest too much, methinks

  16. #136
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    I vote for Purple

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