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  1. #21

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    You asked for facts, here are the facts

    * Ando increased her her GOEs dramatically by 14.36 points over a season, from the Cup of China to 4CCs (known for score inflation) where Miki had the 2nd highest ladies FS ever in ISU history without a 3:3, 3A.

    * Ando's PCS went up 12.12 in one season between Cup of China and WC where she did not go clean. Her technical content for WC was lower than 4CCs, and despite making mistakes there, her PCS actually went up even more by 3.22 points enough to affect the rankings.

    Links to scores break downs and protocols



    20 Questions and reasonable doubts - consider there's only 1.29 difference separate 1st place and 2nd place.

    1. Do you think Judges' impressions can be dramatically swayed and manipulated through out a season? Should it?

    2. Do you really think artistry can be suddenly developed in 1 season?

    3. If Miki skate for Korea, Yuna skate for Japan, would that affect the score?

    4. Do you think momentum building can affect scoring?

    5. How important is having a strong federation in this sport? Why?

    6. Why do you think it is more advantageous to have more home events?

    7 Regardless of how they are scored at the competition. Do you honestly think Yuna's 3Lz = Miki's 3Lz in quality in presentation? Why have they been scored differently in the past?

    8. Who has the more complex, intricate and difficult program out of the two?

    9. What if the competition is not in Russia where Morozov reign supreme, where they consider Miki practically their own. What if it had been in US, China, Canada, France, Italy etc, would that affect the scoring?

    10. What if the Tsunami in Japan did not happen?

    11. What if the host of the championship is not Japan that year?

    12. What if post Olympics rule changes did not occur e.g to repress GOEs and 70% rule for lessen penalty for UR, minimise 2x2A in FS etc? ie/No 2A3T for Kim.

    13. What if there are penalties for unbalanced program? What if there are bonuses for balanced program which ISU is suppose to be encouraging?

    14. If the hosts have proven to shown such poor sportsmanship for snubbing Kim out of the official championship booklet, do you think they would not have done so in other ways behind the scene probably designed to affect the skater?

    15. Can cold reception of rival skater from the home crowds not affect the Judges impressions? Especially there's no precedent to have seen the program? Or would it make them more conservative in judging?

    16. What if the season and timing went on normal so where skater's peak condition were on time for the competition?

    17. If Mao has performed better that season, do you think it can affect Miki's scoring through out the season?

    18. In terms of quality, intellectual and emotional realization, who has the better and memorable programs that year? Why is it not reflected in the score more?

    19. Yuna has never won by PCS in her entire career. Why? Is it fair to her when others have repeatedly done so including Miki here?

    20. Are all championship wins worth the same, what makes them important and valuable? How has the press /blog/ fan reception of this particular WC win been like? Why?


    I wasn't planning to say anything, but since you brought up the topic and created a thread, I might as well.
    Last edited by os168; 07-26-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    You asked for facts, here are the facts

    * Ando increased her her GOEs dramatically by 14.36 points over a season, from the Cup of China to 4CCs (known for score inflation) where Miki had the 2nd highest ladies FS ever in ISU history without a 3:3, 3A.

    * Ando's PCS went up 12.12 in one season between Cup of China and WC where she did not go clean. Her technical content for WC was lower than 4CCs, and despite making mistakes there, her PCS actually went up even more by 3.22 points enough to affect the rankings.

    Links to scores break downs and protocols
    I have no word to say about it. maybe because ando has build reputation repeatedly, one competition to competition
    20 Questions and reasonable doubts - consider there's only 1.29 difference separate 1st place and 2nd place.

    1. Do you think Judges' impressions can be dramatically swayed and manipulated through out a season? Should it?
    2. Do you really think artistry can be suddenly developed in 1 season?
    yes.
    4. Do you think momentum building can affect scoring?
    yes same for all skaters
    5. How important is having a strong federation in this sport? Why?
    I can not deny it. But, It has nothing to do with Ando's winning at 2011 Worlds. and even if it affected to result that night, it is just a one of the reasons why kim defeated
    7 Regardless of how they are scored at the competition. Do you honestly think Yuna's 3Lz = Miki's 3Lz in quality in presentation? Why have they been scored differently in the past?
    yes. similar or same. And as i said, miki had much more reputation in that season than past, kim had not competed in whole season. So, It would affect on GOE in judgement.
    18. In terms of quality, intellectual and emotional realization, who has the better and memorable programs that year? Why is it not reflected in the score more?
    Everyone have different taste, I prefered Ando's. So, I don't have problem in PCS.
    19. Yuna has never won by PCS in her entire career. Why? Is it fair to her when others have repeatedly done so including Miki here?
    I don't know. But if you have a purpose that claim yuna kim would win if her pcs was correct(In Your opinion), well? As I said in this thread, I think miki was a true champion.
    20. Are all championship wins worth the same, what makes them important and valuable? How has the press /blog/ fan reception of this particular WC win been like? Why?
    I wasn't planning to say anything, but since you brought up the topic and created a thread, I might as well.
    I didn't say her winning has same worth with yuna kim's. just said they have same number of world title. and I know that some journalist like dave don't like ando .. But the fact that ando was a true champion does not change
    and I answered to only questions related with subject..
    Last edited by torren; 07-26-2013 at 07:11 PM.

  3. #23
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    This thread is incredibly stupid. The very fact the OP is having to argue Ando being worthy of the victory at an event she skated close to her best and Kim was below average for her standards already says it all. Lets put it simply, would Ando have a prayer in hell to beat the Kim of the 2010 Olympics or 2013 Worlds or even 2009 Worlds even if she skated perfectly with 3-3s (which she hasnt been capable of since 2007), and a quad salchow? Answer is obviously no. Next.

  4. #24
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    os168, so you will claim that kim was robbed?
    I was looking for comentaries in english. I found two in Youtube.

    It is universal commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/OkHXFu6NBBs
    After score/placement is announced, Commentators seem a bit surprised, maybe because they thought two skaters will be too tied and didn't know who will win, so were a bit surprised.
    BUT They still didn't angry and claim kim was robbed or blame Ando.

    It is Euro commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/8KjrR5WyBs0
    before, score/placement is announced, They said "will she regaining world title?" It means they didn't say world title is surely hers.
    they seem a bit embarrassed after score is announced. But still not said she was robbed or blame ando as well as universal

    You are not a expert so what is your problem
    Last edited by torren; 07-26-2013 at 07:14 PM.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    os168, so you will claim that kim was robbed?
    I was looking for comentaries in english. I found two in Youtube.

    It is universal commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/OkHXFu6NBBs
    After score is announced, Commentator's voice looks a bit surprised, maybe because they thought two skaters will be too tied and didn't know who will win, so were a bit surprised.
    BUT They still didn't angry and claim kim was robbed or blame Ando.

    It is Euro commentary of yuna kim's FS. http://youtu.be/8KjrR5WyBs0
    before, score is announced, They said "will she regaining world title?" It means they didn't say world title is surely hers. they seem a bit embarrassed after score is announced.
    But still not said she was robbed or blame ando as well as universal

    You are not a expert so what is your problem
    LOL.. I never claim I am an expert but you on the other hand claims 'Andofinantic's post is the objective of all which is totally bogus (who is probably the same user as Kwanlysacek - another major troll who keep create Kim vs XXX polls in attempt to tarnish her reputation). If you don't like the answer, then don't go create threads like this and not expect a counter balance view.

    I have at least been to that particular WC competition and experienced the ladies event live myself that week and saw and experienced a little behind the scenes. I know what i saw, and experienced. The vibe and the energy of the crowd to know what you see on youtube only shows a very limited view of how judges feels and sees. The result is what it is, without it we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe it was destiny, who knows.

    Regardless how I have felt about the programs and the results, I have never claimed anyone is robbed, but I do like to ask the questions and make analysis just like any other fan, and it is up to the readers themselves to decide for whether the results was based entirely on what went on ice that day, or something else. If you are firm on your believes then so be it.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    This thread is incredibly stupid. The very fact the OP is having to argue Ando being worthy of the victory at an event she skated close to her best and Kim was below average for her standards already says it all. Lets put it simply, would Ando have a prayer in hell to beat the Kim of the 2010 Olympics or 2013 Worlds or even 2009 Worlds even if she skated perfectly with 3-3s (which she hasnt been capable of since 2007), and a quad salchow? Answer is obviously no. Next.
    I don't want to compare her at past olympic with kim
    I said I am saying in hypothetic situation if ando is in top form, and had much more reputation like she did at 2011 Worlds.

    and in 15# I said i will change my opinions a bit. if kim does clean programs, it would be so hard to beat for ando.
    but when kim have similar mistakes with ando in top form who doing same difficulty jumps? it was proved in 2011 Worlds that Judge's attitude about kim is worse when kim is not at the best and very tied with rivals. She is just becoming a ordinary top skater. as i said above, based on results of 2011 Worlds(2011 worlds is the best example to compare them, ando was in good form, it is where they competed in last time), pcs, goe on jump/step/spin, there was no big difference when ando was the top skater of the season. So, in this position, Ando has more advantage.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    Miki is the same class with kim. she has no Oly gold. But as same with her, Miki is two time world champion.
    Kim is an Olympic and two time World Champion. An Olympic Gold is worth about 2 World titles so basically Kim is a four time World Champion and Ando a two time. Even an Olympic Gold plus 1 World title is way better than just 2 World titles, let alone 2 World titles plus the Olympics.

    Lets compare their careers. 3 World or Olympic Golds including Olympic Gold, 3 Grand Prix final titles, 7 World or Olympic medals including medals in all 7 entered vs 2 World or Olympic Golds, no Olympic medal of any color, 0 Grand Prix final titles, and only 3 World or Olympic medals. Comparing Ando's career to Kim the two are in another league and many levels apart, just as the two are as skaters.

    Most consider Kim the best ever. Most dont even consider Ando top 30 all time. Comparing the two is like comparing Yagudin to Todd Eldredge.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Kim is an Olympic and two time World Champion. An Olympic Gold is worth about 2 World titles so basically Kim is a four time World Champion and Ando a two time. Even an Olympic Gold plus 1 World title is way better than just 2 World titles, let alone 2 World titles plus the Olympics.

    Lets compare their careers. 3 World or Olympic Golds including Olympic Gold, 3 Grand Prix final titles, 7 World or Olympic medals including medals in all 7 entered vs 2 World or Olympic Golds, no Olympic medal of any color, 0 Grand Prix final titles, and only 3 World or Olympic medals. Comparing Ando's career to Kim the two are in another league and many levels apart, just as the two are as skaters.

    Most consider Kim the best ever. Most dont even consider Ando top 30 all time. Comparing the two is like comparing Yagudin to Todd Eldredge.
    I just thought ando's career is comparable to yuna kim in terms of number of big titles..
    anyway, Many remembers How many times who won world title much more than who won silver or bronze in Worlds many times, or how many times won GPF
    Last edited by torren; 07-26-2013 at 09:17 PM.

  9. #29

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    Having three world medals and 2 being gold is actually a good stat! Not some kind of bad stat!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    I just thought ando's career is comparable to yuna kim in terms of number of big titles..
    anyway, Many remembers How many times who won world title much more than who won silver or bronze in Worlds many times, or how many times won GPF
    Lets only look at their Olympic and World titles:

    Olympic Gold >>>> World gold
    World gold = World gold
    World gold >>>>>>>>>> Nothing (since we have already used up all of Ando's Olympic or World golds already)

    Kim is way ahead even then. An Olympic Gold and 2 World titles is not comparable to 2 World titles. An Olympic Gold and 1 World title is comparable to 3 World titles perhaps.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    She botched her layback and spirals in the short but did not fall. She fell on 3sal in the free. If you want to make outlandish claims on why Ando deserved sky high PCS, the least you could do is get your facts straight, not especially since you are trying to discredit me.

    Again, as I said, this in itself is not a skating-related (i.e. legitimate) reason to boost up someone's PCS. However, I have no doubt this is one reason why her PCS jumped. What I and many are saying is that it shouldn't have jumped that way, simply because her skating was the same across the 2 seasons regardless of her skating results.

    Did you think those 9 judges at 1996 Worlds were more familiar with Salome or Rach 2? Did you think those 9 judges at 2000 Worlds were more familiar with Red Violin or Carmen / Swan Lake? Did you think those 9 judges at 2001 Worlds were more familiar with Song of the Black Swan or Don Quixote?

    Popularity of the music should have nothing to do with judges' scores. Again, I have no doubt this is one reason why her PCS jumped. What I and many are saying is that it shouldn't have jumped that way, simply because her skating was the same across the 2 seasons regardless of music.

    It means she never cared about the music what she skated. She didn't use the nuances, wasn't trying to create a mood. She was totally just going through the motions. This was actually less obvious during her younger years.

    I prefer neither of those programs. Again, they are just the same non-program with different music. Grieg was of course prettier music but it makes no difference because she wasn't skating with it. She was just doing her elements while the music was playing in the background.
    If you say you can not understand gap in pcs between kim and ando or ando's pcs, It is ok.. Everyone has different opinions.
    But I can never agree that she was not better than 2010 olympic artistically. I think miki's programs in 10-11 are much better than her in 09-10
    olympic FS - http://youtu.be/wTX09GUugpo
    2011 worlds FS- http://youtu.be/ZD_AtQv9ub4

    about musics.
    salome VS rach ? red violin or carmen? They are not similar case at all. difference between them is just degree of which music was more well known. both sides are well known music
    But kim's music was... even before consider whether it is famous or not, type of genre is difficult. To contrast, maybe everyone have heard miki's musics of programs at least once before she skated.

    Anyway, regardless of you are crying and saying it shouldn't be. figure skating has been like. Are there anyone who believe judges have judged purely just based on performance? while miki has been the best skater of the season, what kim did? Again, Kim should know they can affect
    Last edited by torren; 07-27-2013 at 12:21 AM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    LOL.. I never claim I am an expert but you on the other hand claims 'Andofinantic's post is the objective of all which is totally bogus (who is probably the same user as Kwanlysacek - another major troll who keep create Kim vs XXX polls in attempt to tarnish her reputation). If you don't like the answer, then don't go create threads like this and not expect a counter balance view.

    I have at least been to that particular WC competition and experienced the ladies event live myself that week and saw and experienced a little behind the scenes. I know what i saw, and experienced. The vibe and the energy of the crowd to know what you see on youtube only shows a very limited view of how judges feels and sees. The result is what it is, without it we wouldn't be where we are today. Maybe it was destiny, who knows.

    Regardless how I have felt about the programs and the results, I have never claimed anyone is robbed, but I do like to ask the questions and make analysis just like any other fan, and it is up to the readers themselves to decide for whether the results was based entirely on what went on ice that day, or something else. If you are firm on your believes then so be it.
    But you doubted her score difference in each competitions in one season in 21# post.
    certainly You doubted her score

    plus, In your #21 post it is very unreliability sentence
    19. Yuna has never won by PCS in her entire career. Why? Is it fair to her when others have repeatedly done so including Miki here?
    could i see the exact data on that? which competitions miki won by pcs, and how number of times she did and also about kim
    please expain all of things
    Last edited by torren; 07-27-2013 at 02:09 AM.

  13. #33

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    based on results of 2011 Worlds(2011 worlds is the best example to compare them, ando was in good form, it is where they competed in last time), pcs, goe on jump/step/spin, there was no big difference when ando was the top skater of the season.
    I find it strange that you are insist compare them when Miki at her best form and Yuna at her worst, then say "Miki can beat Yuna anytime" Why don't compare them when two at their best? We could also based on the score even they don't compete each other

    Okay, I agree with you that Miki can beat Yuna when she at her best while Yuna at her worst by what, about 1 point Once happend at 2011 Worlds, and will never happen again, that's all
    Last edited by HVS; 07-27-2013 at 06:19 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVS View Post
    I find it strange that you are insist compare them when Miki at her best form and Yuna at her worst, then say "Miki can beat Yuna anytime" Why don't compare them when two at their best? We could also based on the score even they don't compete each other

    Okay, I agree with you that Miki can beat Yuna when she at her best while Yuna at her worst by what, about 1 point Once happend at 2011 Worlds, and will never happen again, that's all
    Miki in 2011 worlds was not the best form of her. Miki had not 3-3 in sp and fs, planned 6 triples in fs, She did not a 3 Flip. Miki just played safe. Miki at the best she can do same or more difficulty jumps than kim

    And as I siad so many times in this thread, I said if miki in top form(so had also reputations) and yuna kim doing same jumps, they would be tie.

    I compared GOE of them on ONLY jumps both two did well. Also goe on spin and step. It does not relate to whether kim was at the worst or not. I did not compare what they landed how many jumps, or had mistakes. 2011 Worlds where miki was the same class with kim, also had reputations as well kim, Two got same GOE on single jumps that two did successfully. including 3lutz. pcs was not so different.

    Again, I was saying based on the facts, Please refute my opinions more objectively
    Last edited by torren; 07-27-2013 at 08:47 AM.

  15. #35

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    Okay, whatever you believe, it will be the fact for you

    But "Miki can beat Yuna ANYTIME" not the fact, please, it's just your hypothesis, no one (anyone?) accept, the reality not prove it

    Peace!

    *sigh*

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    But you doubted her score difference in each competitions in one season in 21# post.
    certainly You doubted her score

    plus, In your #21 post it is very unreliability sentence

    could i see the exact data on that? which competitions miki won by pcs, and how number of times she did and also about kim
    please expain all of things
    Of course I doubt her score, I doubt everyone's score, others can too. This is figure skating. Why do you think there are threads where people mention how they'd judge the event? Or how they disagree with the judging?

    I pay attention to stats like how one can pay attention to financial forecast (which I can disagree too), and notes how things like reputation, good and negative press and environmental, political factors can affect human appraisals which IJS tries to do objectively - but arguably can fail, when it doesn't appear to account for risk management like dealing with how variable factors and attributes can also affect scoring (human error, emotion, latency effect/what you see-what you believe, national loyalty and biases hidden by anonymity and lack of accountability) and false bench marking (momentum building, home event advantages that favours the more powerful federations, narrow corridor marking for PCS etc) can all affect scoring.

    I'd argue the next big change in rules are not necessarily to do with the procedural aspect or how elements should be numerically awarded but should be about giving the judges 5-10 minutes extra time to contemplate and reappraise if they got the marks correctly the first time including the availability of close up repeat plays using Zoom in close ups videos, which should be done once everyone completed their performance. This should also be done between each competitions too, where there should be a recalibration process to apply consistent judging standards and marks between different events. Otherwise one false inflated mark at home events where judges are encouraged to get it wrong will prove unfair advantage to others as the next competition. This shouldn't be about what is popular with the sporting federations but what is fair to the sport and ALL its participants.

    Miki's scores as the season progresses is inconsistent with how she was previously marked and performed on ice. She have been over marked through out the season as JSF found they can't rely on Mao as their leading lady. I have already raised the issue of the dramatic PCS / GOE rise from the beginning of the season at CoC to 4CC to WC. That her 4CC had been the 2nd highest FS in ISU ladies history ever. Which means it would have won Silver at the Olympics 2010 and WC 2011 over Mao - even without a 3:3 or 3A. The 4CCs being a competition known for inflated scores, yet her WC FS performance being less well performed with mistakes with 7.28 less TES score than 4CC, Miki received a boost of + 3.22 in PCS on top of her 4CC score which is enough to distort the rankings.

    As for point 19, do your own data research using the ISU protocols. If you don't believe me, then simply prove me wrong. I am not here to provide stats service, especially you've already made your mind up to bash Yuna where ever her name is mentioned.
    Last edited by os168; 07-29-2013 at 04:53 AM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Miki's scores as the season progresses is inconstant with how she was previously marked and performed on ice. She have been over marked through out the season as JSF found they can't rely on Mao as their leading lady. I have already raised the issue of the dramatic PCS / GOE rise from the beginning of the season at CoC to 4CC to WC. That her 4CC had been the 2nd highest FS in ISU ladies history ever. Which means it would have won Silver at the Olympics 2010 and WC 2011 over Mao - even without a 3:3 or 3A. The 4CCs being a competition known for inflated scores, yet her WC FS performance being less well performed with mistakes with 7.28 less TES score than 4CC, Miki received a boost of + 3.22 in PCS on top of her 4CC score which is enough to distort the rankings.
    you were right about her score difference. She was surely treated differently in each competitions.
    but I found proper reasons why judges should do..

    At COC, her rival skater was akiko. her pcs was the highest and but almost same with suzuki. was not so high.. sp:28 / fs:55
    At COR, her rival was again akiko here. her pcs was even lower than akiko by 4 points. sp:26/fs:57
    At Worlds, her rival was yuna kim, and her PCS was lower than yuna kim by 3 points. sp:31/fs:64

    As we see, She was treated as same level skater with akiko in COC, COR.
    At Worlds, she was treated as same level with kim.
    This is strange facts because judges have been seeing akiko and yuna kim in different class but miki was treated same with them in each different competitions in one season

    I felt that judges were confused to how seeing miki in which level? by only considering her ability in that season.. Because Miki was surely the favorite skater but miki had not special factors 3-3 or 3a or amazing artistry like other Top skaters... So very depends on her rivals of each competitions... At worlds, they should find who should be rival with kim. So.. They suddenly made miki to kim's rival at 4CC. 4cc was held in japan and Maybe JSF also supported it because Mao had raugh season as you said. And Miki was treated as same level skater with kim at worlds

    The fact that treatment developed, did not much relate with her ability development, but was it like a unseen rule judges needed

    As for point 19, do your own data research using the ISU protocols. If you don't believe me, then simply prove me wrong. I am not here to provide stats service, especially you've already made your mind up to bash Yuna where ever her name is mentioned.
    OK. anyway, Even if miki did sometimes or even many times, it doesn't matter. all top figure skaters do. top skaters often win by PCS even when they missed many jumps. carolina won euro this year overly in this way. TES was 10 points behind sotnikova and PCS was 10 points higher than sotnikova. patrick chan won that way at this worlds, ashley won by that way in 2013 U.S. national
    Last edited by torren; 07-29-2013 at 07:16 AM.

  18. #38
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    Ando's only mistake in the LP at those Worlds cost her about 5 and a half points. Kim's triple flip miss cost her about 6 points, then her single toe on the back of the triple salchow about another 2 and a half. Kim's triple lutz miss in the short program cost her atleast 3 points. Her not doing the triple-triple combo she had planned in the short was another 3 points. So Kim had much more lost in mistakes than Ando at those Worlds. Even if you overlook not doing the triple-triple in the short since Ando didnt try one (even though Kim can do them and Ando cant) them having the same mistakes would have been Kim having only the singled triple flip in the long and Ando stumbling out of her planned double toe-triple toe which she turned into a double-double in the long and removing Kim's triple lutz miss and missing her triple salchow-double toe combination in the long. Remove those and with increased PCS Kim probably wins by about 8 points overall. Just remove one of the two and Kim still wins, even though she still has 1 more mistake than Ando and the bigger big mistake (Kim's singled flip is bigger than Ando's missed double axel-triple toe).

    Ando has no area she would outscore a clean Kim. Not jump GOE, not spins, not footwork or spirals, definitely not PCS. You only help prove the point as the best you can do is point some things Ando tied Kim in GOE or PCS or was close, but never a time she was ahead on anything, not even for a single element unless Kim missed it. As for jump GOE Kim on her 7 clean jumps at those Worlds gained 6.77 in GOE. Ando on 9 clean jumps gained 7.37 in GOE, so on average less than Kim. So even there she was behind and that was with Kim in her worst shape ever, and skating and jumping much smaller than usual in addition to making a ton of mistakes. How can you beat someone when you are both clean if there isnt a single thing you can score better. Where would the points magically come from. Scoring equal or close in a few things is still not better.

    It is true Ando was closer in scoring potential than usual than Kim at the 2011 Worlds which is why with Kim making many more and much bigger mistakes she was able to barely beat her. That is because aside from Kim's many mistakes and Ando skating nearly her best, Ando had reputation from dominanting that season with Kim, Kostner, and Asada all away, backing from the powerful Japanese fed. with Asada struggling, and since Kim was skating and jumping much smaller than usual due to the lack of training and the ISU and jugdes were made at her for not taking skating seriously since the Games. Any other time especialy today the gap in scoring potential would be about 5 times more than it was at that years Worlds. Imagine if they both skated their best at the 2010 Olympics, and Ando had done all her triple-triples. What would the gap have been there, atleast 25 points probably.

    As for Ando not doing the most she could do get real. The hardest thing she has been able to do since 2007 is a double axel-triple toe combination and triple lutz-double loop. Her triple-triple attempts were all downgraded since then which is why she barely tries them anymore. She just cant do them. Even when Ando skated totally cleanly with the triple lutz-triple loop and all her hardest jumps at the 2007 Worlds though she needed Kim to have about 4 falls worth of mistakes to beat her.

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