Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 38
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0

    Miki Ando in 2011 Worlds

    Miki Ando was so strong skater in 2010-2011 season. She won Yuna kim. I want to talk about her in 2011 Worlds.

    This is a thread "andofanatic" made in April. I thought It is a objective thread and too true. I bring it for adding things to my claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andofanatic View Post
    2011 Worlds proves Ando can beat Kim if both are clean or similar errors.
    At the 2011 Worlds Ando made 1 mistake and landed 5 triples with no triple-triple and came from behind to pass Kim who made 1 mistake and landed 5 triples and a triple-triple. That just shows if both skated cleanly with the same jumps Ando would win easily, and considering Ando can do 7 triples (and sometimes a quad) vs only 6 for Kim it would be an even easier win if both skated cleanly with all they can do.
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...similar-errors
    *I'm saying in hypothetic situation if ando is in top form.

    2011 Worlds is the last competition two skaters fought, so I think this comparison is fair enough.
    Single Jumps that both of miki and kim did successfully are 3lutz, 3sal. They got same GOE on both jumps.
    Ando got same GOE 0.9 with kim in 3lutz which is the strongest jump of kim. Ando got same GOE 0.8 on 3Sal with kim. It proves Ando in top form had similar quality jump with kim.

    This events proved these things. If kim makes similar errors with her rivals, she is becoming a ordinary top skater. Of course this is same on PCS. 2011 Worlds Where kim had similar skates with Ando, Judges have judged that kim is just slightly better than Ando artistically. In any element in protocal, I could not find kim surpassed Ando surely.
    Don't think that at that time, Judges didn't intend to make large difference in PCS. At the same event, Patrick Chan in Mens won 2rd skater kozuka who is known for so strong skating skill, and skated close to clean in PCS by 12.

    So they prove when Ando is in top form, if both skated cleanly with the same jumps Ando would win easily,
    In TES, also in pcs.
    Last edited by torren; 07-24-2013 at 11:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Quadland
    Posts
    6,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Also the ando layout was 2/5 which netted vital points

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    79
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    A clean Kim would kill a clean Ando. Ando's career PB is merely 137 points. Kim has scored higher than that atleast 4 times, and her two top scores are more than 10 points higher. Then the SP Kim's personal B is about 10 points higher than Ando which is far worse considering it is only a SP. No contest.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    with my Sestra Helena plotting how to ravish Hot Paul and delicious Cal
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Kim made 4 mistakes at those Worlds, not just 1. She fell on the 3Lutz in the SP, thus abandoning her original plan of 3Lutz+3toe, so no 3Lutz and no 3toe landed (2 mistakes or miscues from what she normally does for a planned clean routine). This forced her to have to change her thinking and go off plan, making her change her solo 3flip to a 3flip+2toe. Had she completed her planned clean routine, she would have left Ando in the dust by about a 12 point lead after the SP. Speaking of the fall on her 3Lutz, one really has to question the judge who awarded her a +1 in execution for this element. Very suspect!

    Miscues followed Kim in the LP as well. She singled a toe on the back end of a 3Salchow and also singled a planned 3flip, resulting in 2 more mistakes.

    A 1 mistake Kim would never lose to Ando, regardless of what country the event was taking place in. Kim very narrowly lost to Ando, even with the 4 mistakes (195.79 vs. 194.50).
    Last edited by museksk8r; 07-24-2013 at 11:51 PM.

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    79
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    A clean Kostner or a clean Asada could make it interesting vs a clean Kim sometimes. Not all the time, neither could have touched Kim at the 2010 Olympics or 2009 Worlds for instance, but at the 2013 Worlds and other events Kim was perfect both could have made it close still skating their best. Ando no chance though. A clean Kim would never come close to losing to a clean Ando even if she did her quad salchow. They just arent the same class of skater.

    Ando doesnt do a single thing better than Kim. Her biggest strength is her jumps but since 2008 Kim does the harder jumps, and also gets the higher GOE, so Ando even loses there if both skate well. Kim has stronger spins, footwork, and PCS by far.

    That isnt to say Ando didnt deserve her World title in 2011. Granted it was close, and one could argue Kim even with her problems should have won. However Ando did skate beautifully and is a 2 time World Champion so is a high quality skater and a champion. Still she will never beat Kim with Kim skating truly well.

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Quadland
    Posts
    6,309
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Kim was 3/4 with 2 of 3 combos in the first half. She also had the 2a as an only element. Ando skated a more backloaded program and did benefit from the fact cop wants jumps in the second half. She was of course better trained than Kim and can backload more than Kim by a lot.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    deleted
    Last edited by torren; 07-25-2013 at 12:32 AM.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Kim made 4 mistakes at those Worlds, not just 1. She fell on the 3Lutz in the SP, thus abandoning her original plan of 3Lutz+3toe, so no 3Lutz and no 3toe landed (2 mistakes or miscues from what she normally does for a planned clean routine). This forced her to have to change her thinking and go off plan, making her change her solo 3flip to a 3flip+2toe. Had she completed her planned clean routine, she would have left Ando in the dust by about a 12 point lead after the SP. Speaking of the fall on her 3Lutz, one really has to question the judge who awarded her a +1 in execution for this element. Very suspect!
    Miscues followed Kim in the LP as well. She singled a toe on the back end of a 3Salchow and also singled a planned 3flip, resulting in 2 more mistakes.
    She did not fall on 3Lutz in SP. she had like to have fallen, but barely she did not fall. But still Wow, One judge gave her +1 GOE on that poor 3Lutz? so ridiculous. How can it happening??
    And, Andofanatic talked about FS. when I saw she mentioned "two skaters did 5 triples". and you are right, In FS, kim did 2 mistakes not one. maybe Andofanatic knew something wrong.

    But there is one sentence that I can never agree. No way kim could win Ando in SP by 12 points. Do you mean she could score 77 if she goes clean?? It is almost same with her record at Olympic where she did 3lutz - 3toe. In 2011 Worlds, she planed 3F-2T / 3Lz / 2A. First of all, base value was different. Have you tried check the protocol?
    If kim did 3lutz, she might get + GOE 0.9~1.0. In FS, she got 0.9 on 3lutz.
    And would not be given -1.5 GOE. So If she went clean, she could got only more 2.5 points. Then 68~69.

    What I meant in "Patrick Chan in Mens won 2rd skater kozuka who is known for so strong skating skill, and skated close to clean in PCS by 12." is he won 2rd skater 12 points in only PCS citeria. It was about only score difference in PCS, Not about SP score or overall score
    Last edited by torren; 07-25-2013 at 02:14 AM.

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    356
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Kim didn't fall in 2011 SP, but had she been clean on that combo I don't think Ando would have been close.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    134
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    But there is one sentence that I can never agree. No way kim could win Ando in SP by 12 points. Do you mean she could score 77 if she goes clean?? It is almost same with her record at Olympic where she did 3lutz - 3toe. In 2011 Worlds, she planed 3F-2T / 3Lz / 2A. First of all, base value was different. Have you tried check the protocol?
    Excuse me, it's you the one who don't get anything here. If Yuna goes clean, it's mean she did 3Lz-3T/3F/2A, same as always. She change it into 3F-2T just becasue it's planed B when she failed in her first trademark triple combination. If Yuna goes clean, she absolutely could score around her record, nothing wrong with that

    *Sigh*

    About the topic, I don't have any problem with Miki won 2011 Worlds, Yuna was not the best at that night, it's okay!!! But if you based on that result to said Miki is the same class with Yuna or could easily win over her anytime, sorry, I had to laugh
    Last edited by HVS; 07-25-2013 at 04:40 AM.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    866
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Lol... the stupendous subversive tactics someone continues to try undermine rivals skaters with thread like these cries desperation and insecurity on these boards. Same with endless polls created by 'new' users of <50 posts or less history.

    All I am going to say is it is with great m&m voodoo magic of cosmic proportions that miki managed to nick this one just in time. Several things had to have aligned up for her. Thank goodness that it did actually, otherwise we might not see Yuna 2013 and 2014.

    I wonder who regret what happened more now; certainly not this fan. The official commemoration championship booklet which she had been snubbed and practically left out of turned out to be the best silverlining's play book in this sport.
    Last edited by os168; 07-25-2013 at 05:59 AM.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by HVS View Post
    About the topic, I don't have any problem with Miki won 2011 Worlds, Yuna was not the best at that night, it's okay!!! But if you based on that result to said Miki is the same class with Yuna or could easily win over her anytime, sorry, I had to laugh
    It is fair and good comparison enough. You admitted that she was true champion. So why I cannot use judgement in this competition as example?
    2011 Worlds is the last competiton that two competed.
    Also I said objectively. I have complained based on protocol.
    Miki is the same class with kim. she has no Oly gold. But as same with her, Miki is two time world champion.
    she has the 3rd good career in this generation. what is laughable and why I can not think that?
    And What I claimed is if miki is in top form, She can win yuna kim anytime. Figure skating Fans love hypothesis. I am not the only one
    Last edited by torren; 07-25-2013 at 07:12 AM.

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,199
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Ando won because Asada had a rough season. The JPN Fed put all their eggs in the Ando basket. In addition, Ando must have had some reputation adjustment points since she competed all through the season and was winning left and right. In contrast, Kim only competed at Worlds and as a result suffered the same way Kwan did from 2004 onwards.

    At 2010 Worlds when Kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell, she was still easily 6.5 points better than a clean Ando in PCS in the free. Suddenly one season later, when Kim only popped 2 jumps which did not significantly disrupt the performance and Ando skated equally indifferently to the music, Kim was only 1.5 points better than Ando? I in no way am convinced that the gap in PCS narrowed between Ando and Kim from 2010 worlds to 2011 Worlds. There's no skating-related explanation anyway.

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    134
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    And What I claimed is if miki is in top form, She can win yuna kim anytime. Figure skating Fans love hypothesis. I am not the only one
    Okay, sorry, if you like to compare them, not my bussiness

    All I mean: If Yuna at her best, no one can touch her (except Mao at her best do 8 triples clean) I admitted that Miki won 11 Worlds just because that night Yuna was NOT at her best, she also not competed the whole season, so it was okay the judge prefer Miki.

    But if two of them skate THE SAME, both clean or both make the same mistake, Miki will never touch Yuna

    What top form Miki is to win over Yuna ANYTIME?

    If I remember right, she also skate quite clean at Olympic 2010, you must know what their scored

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by HVS View Post
    Okay, sorry, if you like to compare them, not my bussiness

    All I mean: If Yuna at her best, no one can touch her (except Mao at her best do 8 triples clean) I admitted that Miki won 11 Worlds just because that night Yuna was NOT at her best, she also not competed the whole season, so it was okay the judge prefer Miki.

    But if two of them skate THE SAME, both clean or both make the same mistake, Miki will never touch Yuna

    What top form Miki is to win over Yuna ANYTIME?

    If I remember right, she also skate quite clean at Olympic 2010, you must know what their scored
    I said "if two of them skate both clean or both make the same mistake WITH same jumps ~"

    They got same GOEs on same jumps both two did. Their pcs difference was just 1 in sp, 2 in lp. Also, Goe on spin and steps have no large difference between two. 0.3~4?

    as Marco said, her PCS in 10-11 season was much higher than olympic season. Because she was a 1 top akater in that season. It proved this. If miki is top form, she will be so consistent and pcs will go higher and higher. Like kostner she would get only 1~3 lower PCS than kim total as she was at 2011 Worlds.
    Then, if you considering all of above things. you will get there is no big difference between two

    realistically, if they are doing same jumps and make similar mistakes, miki in top form would tie with yuna kim.If 'she would win yuna kim anytime' is not likely.
    and I will change my former opinions a bit.if kim does clean programs, it would be so hard to beat for ando.
    But of course, Judge's attitude about kim is worse when kim is not at the best and be tied with rivals. So in this position, Ando has more advantage.
    Last edited by torren; 07-26-2013 at 06:29 AM.

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    HVS, You can refute this^ objectively? I all said based on facts, the protocol.

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    124
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Kim made 4 mistakes at those Worlds, not just 1.
    Yuna made 3 mistakes, not 4.
    3Lz3T-3F --> 3Lz-3F2T should be counted for 1 mistake.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._SP_Scores.pdf
    Last edited by EricRohmer; 07-26-2013 at 07:59 AM.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Ando won because Asada had a rough season. The JPN Fed put all their eggs in the Ando basket. In addition, Ando must have had some reputation adjustment points since she competed all through the season and was winning left and right. In contrast, Kim only competed at Worlds and as a result suffered the same way Kwan did from 2004 onwards.

    At 2010 Worlds when Kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell, she was still easily 6.5 points better than a clean Ando in PCS in the free. Suddenly one season later, when Kim only popped 2 jumps which did not significantly disrupt the performance and Ando skated equally indifferently to the music, Kim was only 1.5 points better than Ando? I in no way am convinced that the gap in PCS narrowed between Ando and Kim from 2010 worlds to 2011 Worlds. There's no skating-related explanation anyway.
    You have said many things uncorrectly. kim's FS in 2010 worlds was less flaws than kim's in 2011 Worlds - kim didn't fall in the free and made 2 mistakes. not great, kind of good fs. where kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell is sp.
    It is one of the reasons the gap in PCS narrowed that much between Ando and Kim from 2010 worlds to 2011 Worlds.. And as you mentioned, kim had not competed whole season, Ando was the best skater of the season.
    and as i mentioned in ando vs kostner thread, kim's FS music was not known internationally at all, so unfamiliar... transitions were also.. It would also affect on pcs

    and huh ? I don't know what you mean in Ando skated equally indifferently to the music.
    About the last sentence, IMO I believe she developed artistry in that season. Especially the way classical... which do you prefer miki's FS in 2011 or Cleopatra FS in 2010? I guess many fs fans will choose first one

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,199
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    as Marco said, her PCS in 10-11 season was much higher than olympic season. Because she was a 1 top akater in that season. It proved this. If miki is top form, she will be so consistent and pcs will go higher and higher.
    And you left out the part where I said I believe it's due to the JPN Fed shifting their politiking focus on Ando due to Asada underperforming, NOT because I feel she suddenly deserved better PCS. I in no way agree to that unreasonable jump in PCS over the 2 seasons and even within the 2011 season. She did win everything except GPF that season but I don't agree that this should be why her PCS improved.

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,199
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    You have said many things uncorrectly. kim's FS in 2010 worlds was less flaws than kim's in 2011 Worlds - kim didn't fall in the free and made 2 mistakes. not great, kind of good fs. where kim was undoubtedly off and actually fell is sp.
    She botched her layback and spirals in the short but did not fall. She fell on 3sal in the free. If you want to make outlandish claims on why Ando deserved sky high PCS, the least you could do is get your facts straight, not especially since you are trying to discredit me.

    And as you mentioned, kim had not competed whole season, Ando was the best skater of the season.
    Again, as I said, this in itself is not a skating-related (i.e. legitimate) reason to boost up someone's PCS. However, I have no doubt this is one reason why her PCS jumped. What I and many are saying is that it shouldn't have jumped that way, simply because her skating was the same across the 2 seasons regardless of her skating results.

    and as i mentioned in ando vs kostner thread, kim's FS music was not known internationally at all, so unfamiliar... transitions were also.. It would also affect on pcs
    Did you think those 9 judges at 1996 Worlds were more familiar with Salome or Rach 2? Did you think those 9 judges at 2000 Worlds were more familiar with Red Violin or Carmen / Swan Lake? Did you think those 9 judges at 2001 Worlds were more familiar with Song of the Black Swan or Don Quixote?

    Popularity of the music should have nothing to do with judges' scores. Again, I have no doubt this is one reason why her PCS jumped. What I and many are saying is that it shouldn't have jumped that way, simply because her skating was the same across the 2 seasons regardless of music.

    and huh ? I don't know what you mean in Ando skated equally indifferently to the music.

    About the last sentence, IMO I believe she developed artistry in that season. Especially the way classical... which do you prefer miki's FS in 2011 or Cleopatra FS in 2010? I guess many fs fans will choose first one
    It means she never cared about the music what she skated. She didn't use the nuances, wasn't trying to create a mood. She was totally just going through the motions. This was actually less obvious during her younger years.

    I prefer neither of those programs. Again, they are just the same non-program with different music. Grieg was of course prettier music but it makes no difference because she wasn't skating with it. She was just doing her elements while the music was playing in the background.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •