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  1. #281
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    My interpretation is that it's not a title, but rather who she is by marriage.

    Agree that when Charles becomes King then the Prince/Princess of Wales will supercede the Duke/Duchess of Cambridge titles. For George though, I wonder if he might at some point inherit the title of Duke of Cambridge - I think that's normally when the current title holder dies (Edward will become the Duke of Edinburgh when Philip dies), but given his position and that by the time William becomes king George will be an adult, perhaps it will be passed to him upon adulthood, or marriage.

    As a point of interest, I think most know that Camilla is currently the Princess of Wales but has chosen to use the title Duchess of Cornwall instead.

    I'm also very interested in what will happen to the Dukedom of York. The title is normally reserved for the second son/second in line to the throne, which he was for a time, but is no longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    I'm also very interested in what will happen to the Dukedom of York. The title is normally reserved for the second son/second in line to the throne, which he was for a time, but is no longer.
    I think it's clear what happens to it - it's Prince Andrew's until he dies, and unless he marries again and has a son, it it will become extinct again afterward. Obviously neither of the York princesses can inherit it, and Prince Harry will get a different Dukedom, presumably upon his marriage (I read somewhere that he might become the Duke of Sussex).

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    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    IIRC, Kate won't be styled Princess until William becomes the heir apparent. Once Charles is King, I think William and Kate will then be referred to as Prince and Princess instead of Duke and Duchess.
    When Charles becomes King, it's petty much a given William will be invested as Prince of Wales, which will be their 'ranking' title, so they'll be Prince and Princess of Wales. n.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Then it was that much suckier that Charles thought that he could never marry her, and instead tried to convince her to wait for eight years. When that failed, they continued shagging each other despite being married to other people and having kids involved.

    I suspect that a large amount of the perceived appeal of the Charles and Camila story is that Americans are confusing it with the stories about former high school sweethearts who didn't see each other for decades, then suddenly meet up again when both are widowed, and pick up where they left off. The latter type type of story is awww-worthy. Charles and Camila, not so much.
    I've seen that movie! So wonderful when they finally find each other again. Charles and Camila - YUK! Who needs a story about infidelity, betrayal and thumbing your nose at all that you are supposed to stand for when you become head of a country. (To say nothing of head of the Church of England). I am still hoping the UK will find a way to skip those two and move right on to Will & Kate.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I think it's clear what happens to it - it's Prince Andrew's until he dies, and unless he marries again and has a son, it it will become extinct again afterward. Obviously neither of the York princesses can inherit it, and Prince Harry will get a different Dukedom, presumably upon his marriage (I read somewhere that he might become the Duke of Sussex).
    Perhaps, though, it is time for a princess to be allowed to inherit the title. Just saying. Perhaps Charles or William will see fit to continue to make it a 21st Century monarchy by making that change.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I think it's clear what happens to it - it's Prince Andrew's until he dies, and unless he marries again and has a son, it it will become extinct again afterward. Obviously neither of the York princesses can inherit it, and Prince Harry will get a different Dukedom, presumably upon his marriage (I read somewhere that he might become the Duke of Sussex).
    Traditionally the Dukedom of York has not been inherited, but rather bestowed to the second son of the ruler, so I disagree that it would have passed to a son of Andrew. Therefore, since I'm sure no one wants to take it away from Andrew, once he dies, it should go to Harry once Charles is king, and then to William's second child once Harry passes and William is king, etc etc.

    For Harry, my sentimental choice is Duke of Suffolk. It's been granted just three times, then inherited and dying out. In its second creation, Henry VIII gave it to Charles Brandon, his childhood friend and closest confidant. I think it would be a fitting title for Harry


    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Perhaps, though, it is time for a princess to be allowed to inherit the title. Just saying. Perhaps Charles or William will see fit to continue to make it a 21st Century monarchy by making that change.
    Agree totally - I don't think there's ever been a duchess without a duke, but if the child would have been a duke if they were a boy, I'd love to see that child be a duchess if they are a girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Perhaps, though, it is time for a princess to be allowed to inherit the title. Just saying. Perhaps Charles or William will see fit to continue to make it a 21st Century monarchy by making that change.
    Some peerages can be inherited by women; for instance, when Lord Mountbatten was assassinated, his eldest daughter succeeded to his title (and some secondary ones), becoming Countess Mountbatten of Burma in her own right - though only her male heirs (and those of her sister) can inherit in the next generation. These were the terms of the letters patent when the title was issued. There have also been peerages created specifically for women, though none in recent decades.

    However, it seems that the issue of succession is decided when a title is created, and not something that is changed retroactively - and I don't believe it's been done with royal peerages. Of course, if it can be done with the monarchy, I'm sure it can be done with a Dukedom - but my guess is that they'll have to remain princesses only... which is no great hardship

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    For Harry, my sentimental choice is Duke of Suffolk. It's been granted just three times, then inherited and dying out. In its second creation, Henry VIII gave it to Charles Brandon, his childhood friend and closest confidant. I think it would be a fitting title for Harry
    I think I may have been mistaken and the rumored Dukedome for Harry was Suffolk. I'm not really sure and don't recall where I read it.

    I don't think there's ever been a duchess without a duke
    There have been! there are several Duchesses in the "peerages created for women" list on Wikipedia, though none since the 19th century.

    ETA: note that two of these were mistresses of the last King Charles; being involved with or an illegitimate offspring of Charles II was an excellent way of getting a title back then
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 08-02-2013 at 05:49 PM.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Traditionally the Dukedom of York has not been inherited, but rather bestowed to the second son of the ruler....
    Probably because all the Dukes of York have either died without male heirs or inherited the throne.

    On a different note, there are portraits or pics of all the Dukes of York on Wiki .. thank goodness for the invention of photography because portraits really don't do people justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Traditionally the Dukedom of York has not been inherited, but rather bestowed to the second son of the ruler, so I disagree that it would have passed to a son of Andrew. Therefore, since I'm sure no one wants to take it away from Andrew, once he dies, it should go to Harry once Charles is king, and then to William's second child once Harry passes and William is king, etc etc.

    For Harry, my sentimental choice is Duke of Suffolk. It's been granted just three times, then inherited and dying out. In its second creation, Henry VIII gave it to Charles Brandon, his childhood friend and closest confidant. I think it would be a fitting title for Harry




    Agree totally - I don't think there's ever been a duchess without a duke, but if the child would have been a duke if they were a boy, I'd love to see that child be a duchess if they are a girl.
    Actually I disagree with you as pertaining Andrew's title of the Duke of York not being passed onto a son if he had one - I believe it would have been passed on as he is the current Duke and I'm pretty sure the title is given to be used by Andrew and any male heir. Yes it has traditionally been handed out to the 2nd son of the monarch but the reason it has rarely been passed on to subsequent sons is because since 1461 the ten holders of the title have either died without male heirs or became King themselves meaning the title reverted back to the crown on each occasion. Prior to that the Dukedom was passed down to surviving sons but had already died out several times due to death or the son becoming King themselves thus the title reverted back to the crown to be bestowed where the current monarch saw fit - usually to the 2nd son of the current monarch.

    As Andrew himself has not got (currently) a male heir then once again the title will revert to the crown upon his death. If by chance he remarries and does father a son then that son would inherit the title of the Duke of York.

    As to Harry it will be interesting as to which Royal Dukedom the Queen or his father (or if by chance Charles is on the throne at that point) bestows upon him. I like the idea of Suffolk but it has never been a Royal dukedom - whereas Sussex has which is why it is a favourite for Harry at some point.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post

    Agree that when Charles becomes King then the Prince/Princess of Wales will supercede the Duke/Duchess of Cambridge titles. For George though, I wonder if he might at some point inherit the title of Duke of Cambridge - I think that's normally when the current title holder dies (Edward will become the Duke of Edinburgh when Philip dies), but given his position and that by the time William becomes king George will be an adult, perhaps it will be passed to him upon adulthood, or marriage.
    No, George will not get the Dukedom of Cambridge. The title is William's until he becomes king, then the Dukedom of Cambridge will revert back to the crown. Considering the longevity of the Windsors it may not be used again until George's son or daughter bestows the title on their son or grandson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Then it was that much suckier that Charles thought that he could never marry her, and instead tried to convince her to wait for eight years. When that failed, they continued shagging each other despite being married to other people and having kids involved.

    I suspect that a large amount of the perceived appeal of the Charles and Camila story is that Americans are confusing it with the stories about former high school sweethearts who didn't see each other for decades, then suddenly meet up again when both are widowed, and pick up where they left off. The latter type type of story is awww-worthy. Charles and Camila, not so much.
    Well phrased perspective. I'm fairly neutral and I have no argument for or against really. It's the stuff of soap opera and/ or BBC miniseries (if a well-written and not trashy script was created). Some of the stuff that happened in that love-hate triangle (Diana: "There's three of us in this marriage...") is so and incredible, it could never be made up.


    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    I've seen that movie! So wonderful when they finally find each other again. Charles and Camila - YUK! Who needs a story about infidelity, betrayal and thumbing your nose at all that you are supposed to stand for when you become head of a country. (To say nothing of head of the Church of England). I am still hoping the UK will find a way to skip those two and move right on to Will & Kate.
    Not a bad idea, but I doubt it will happen. Again though, Charles will be very unlikely to have a long reign if he manages to outlive his mother and at long last becomes King.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Well phrased perspective. I'm fairly neutral and I have no argument for or against really. It's the stuff of soap opera and/ or BBC miniseries (if a well-written and not trashy script was created). Some of the stuff that happened in that love-hate triangle (Diana: "There's three of us in this marriage...") is so and incredible, it could never be made up.
    And it's probably even worse than what the public knows!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    I've seen that movie! So wonderful when they finally find each other again. Charles and Camila - YUK! Who needs a story about infidelity, betrayal and thumbing your nose at all that you are supposed to stand for when you become head of a country. (To say nothing of head of the Church of England). I am still hoping the UK will find a way to skip those two and move right on to Will & Kate.
    Oh, it's hardly unique - there are plenty of such ancestors in the family trees of royals and peers, many of whom are descendants of Charles II and his various illegitimate offspring; I don't know how many people were in his marriage, but certainly more than three . Going further into the past, Henry VII's claim to the throne was through his mother Margaret Beaufort, whose grandfather was one of four children born to the Duke of Lancaster and his long-time mistress Katherine Swynford. They finally married late in life and their children were legitimated retroactively. So, the Tudors and all subsequent British monarchs are descended from an adulterous relationship, or more accurately, in many cases, from multiple adulterous relationships. Can you imagine all that going down with today's media?

    Charles and Camilla couldn't have been married without the Queen's permission. Too bad they didn't/couldn't do it when they were younger, but since they are married now and she is clearly accepted by the rest of the family, I see no problem.

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    If at the time Charles didn't have to marry someone perceived as purer than pure, which pretty much meant an embryo, they all might have been happier a long time ago, albeit without these children.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Diaper duty: Prince William tells of fatherhood, 'baby mode' at charity polo match via @bostondotcom http://bo.st/180IcaK

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    The baby polo mallet is very cute but it had better be kept on a high shelf or little George is going to smash anything in his reach with that thing.

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  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Some peerages can be inherited by women; for instance, when Lord Mountbatten was assassinated, his eldest daughter succeeded to his title (and some secondary ones), becoming Countess Mountbatten of Burma in her own right - though only her male heirs (and those of her sister) can inherit in the next generation. These were the terms of the letters patent when the title was issued. There have also been peerages created specifically for women, though none in recent decades.

    However, it seems that the issue of succession is decided when a title is created, and not something that is changed retroactively - and I don't believe it's been done with royal peerages. Of course, if it can be done with the monarchy, I'm sure it can be done with a Dukedom - but my guess is that they'll have to remain princesses only... which is no great hardship


    I think I may have been mistaken and the rumored Dukedome for Harry was Suffolk. I'm not really sure and don't recall where I read it.


    There have been! there are several Duchesses in the "peerages created for women" list on Wikipedia, though none since the 19th century.

    ETA: note that two of these were mistresses of the last King Charles; being involved with or an illegitimate offspring of Charles II was an excellent way of getting a title back then
    I believe Diana was a decended from one of Charles the second mistresses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    I've seen that movie! So wonderful when they finally find each other again. Charles and Camila - YUK! Who needs a story about infidelity, betrayal and thumbing your nose at all that you are supposed to stand for when you become head of a country. (To say nothing of head of the Church of England). I am still hoping the UK will find a way to skip those two and move right on to Will & Kate.
    I agree but I find it doubtful that they can be skipped. I am a lot older than many of you so I can remember a lot of past Charles history. When he was younger, I always thought he was an embarrassment to the Queen & completely unfit to be head of any state. I've often wondered if the Queen would have already stepped down if Edward was the oldest. And his "love story" was never romantic to me. I hate adultery; it causes so much misery. Diana was a much too young girl with stars in her eyes but she would have had to be deaf dumb & blind in order NOT to know what he was. He had dated her older sister for awhile as well - I always wondered if her sister tried to talk her out of marrying him.

    But my opinion of Camilla has nothing to do with Diana. At first I just thought Diana was a silly little fool with no taste. Then when she got more mature & her fashion sense improved & she got more poise, she seemed to be living up to her role that she took on of her own free will, but later after she too committed adultery, eventually got divorced, & then appeared to go wild, she didn't seem all that admirable to me. William & Kate seem to be the model for what I visualize what young royals should be. As for Camilla, the thought of her being Queen is ludicrous to me. I would probably feel differently if she had ever in her life stood up straight. I hate slouching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    He had dated her older sister for awhile as well - I always wondered if her sister tried to talk her out of marrying him.
    Given how the Spencers kept throwing both their daughters at the Prince of Wales without caring which one stuck , I doubt it.

    And at this rate William might be the next king just because men in that family just aren't as long-lived as the women, though Philip seems to have added some longevity genes. I don't have any problems with Camilla, possibly just because I can see getting along with someone like her while I'd have gotten fed up with Diana (I don't do fashion, celebs, neurotic personalities, etc.) Kate just seems much more sensible and down to Earth and clearly William got the best aspects of both sides.

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