View Poll Results: Who won the 1988 Olympic long program?

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  • Katarina Witt

    3 3.75%
  • Elizabeth Manley

    37 46.25%
  • Midori Ito

    36 45.00%
  • Debi Thomas

    2 2.50%
  • Jill Trenary

    0 0%
  • Claudia Leistner

    2 2.50%
  • Other option

    0 0%
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  1. #21
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    Ito by far. Manley was on that night but not only did Ito have more triples (and more in combination as well) but I really liked the way Midori's program was constructed (triple flip into a combination spin, spread eagle into triple loop into a spin, ina bauer into a triple triple combination, circular footwork into russian splits going into triple salchow, 2 falling leap jumps into double axel into a crazy fast scratch spin). Not to mention she had incredibly strong edges, fast powerful spins, and break neck speed. Combine that with her charisma made for a very charming and exciting program. I find it amazing that many on youtube only want to think she was only a jumper.

  2. #22
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    I would have given:

    1. Midori Ito 6.0 5.9
    2. Elizabeth Manley 5.7 5.9 (no credit for her two-footed 3loop)
    3. Katarina Witt 5.4 5.8
    4. Jill Trenary 5.3 5.7
    5. Claudia Leistner 5.4 5.5
    6. Debi Thomas 5.2 5.6

    My view on SP:

    1. Caryn Kadavy 0.4
    2. Midori Ito 0.8
    3. Debi Thomas 1.2
    4. Katarina Witt 1.6
    5. Elizabeth Manley 2.0
    6. Jill Trenary 2.4

    With this scenario, the final outcome would have been (CF+SP+FP):

    1. Elizabeth Manley 6.4
    2. Katarina Witt 6.4
    3. Midori Ito 7.8
    4. Debi Thomas 8.4
    5. Jill Trenary 9.4
    Last edited by matti; 07-22-2013 at 03:50 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Ito by far. Manley was on that night but not only did Ito have more triples (and more in combination as well) but I really liked the way Midori's program was constructed (triple flip into a combination spin, spread eagle into triple loop into a spin, ina bauer into a triple triple combination, circular footwork into russian splits going into triple salchow, 2 falling leap jumps into double axel into a crazy fast scratch spin). Not to mention she had incredibly strong edges, fast powerful spins, and break neck speed. Combine that with her charisma made for a very charming and exciting program. I find it amazing that many on youtube only want to think she was only a jumper.
    Pretty much. Manley was on. Ito was ON.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Ito by far. Manley was on that night but not only did Ito have more triples (and more in combination as well) but I really liked the way Midori's program was constructed (triple flip into a combination spin, spread eagle into triple loop into a spin, ina bauer into a triple triple combination, circular footwork into russian splits going into triple salchow, 2 falling leap jumps into double axel into a crazy fast scratch spin). Not to mention she had incredibly strong edges, fast powerful spins, and break neck speed. Combine that with her charisma made for a very charming and exciting program. I find it amazing that many on youtube only want to think she was only a jumper.
    Well said. Both of her programs from 1988 were incredible, especially, IMO, her SP. As for Midori's other skating qualities maybe not getting their due respect, this is probably because her jumping ability was so outstanding it tended to overshadow her other excellent skating qualities.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by matti View Post
    I would have given:

    2. Elizabeth Manley 5.7 5.9 (no credit for her two-footed 3loop)
    Her loop at Olys has been a source of controversy. I've looked at it a lot: I don't see a two-foot, just a low free leg.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Her loop at Olys has been a source of controversy. I've looked at it a lot: I don't see a two-foot, just a low free leg.
    IMO the double-footing was clear when watching it on TV/VHS back in the day, the free blade even left a mark on the ice (EBU signal/footage).
    Last edited by matti; 07-22-2013 at 06:23 PM.

  7. #27
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    Ito: 3z; 3F; 3l; 2x-3s; 3t-3t; 3s; 2x
    Manley: 3z; 3l (2 foot); 3s; 3t; 3 2x and multiple 2F

    Manley did not win the LP with her jumps if you compare them to Midori. Manley landed three clean triples, Midori landed seven with a combination and a sequence including triples. In regard to spins, Midori did a death drop, flying camel and a combination spin with Y-positions and features. Her steps were also acceptable.

    Midori was the best that night.

  8. #28
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    Manley since she had very strong technical and very strong artistic as opposed to Ito who had only the technical and Witt who had only the artistic.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Manley since she had very strong technical and very strong artistic as opposed to Ito who had only the technical and Witt who had only the artistic.
    Midori wasn't un-artistic though. She was no ballerina and she didn't skate generically pretty programs but you don't have to in order to be considered artistic.

  10. #30

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    I would rather watch Midori's performance over Manley's supposed artistry.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #31
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    Although I prefer Ito to Manley by far, Manley had some great performances in the 85-88 quad. I think she was in the top 3 of most talented along with Ito and Kadavy. I find her 86 Worlds LP to be better or equal to Witt ,Thomas or Chin on the worlds stage. She had more difficulty, and lots of spark and energy that Chin lacked IMO.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Midori wasn't un-artistic though.
    She wasnt unartistic, but she wasnt a top level artistic skater either before 89 IMO. Obviously the judges agreed as their marks showed. I dont always agree with judges but in this case I concur, a 5.9 or 6.0 technical performance for the time, and a 5.6 or 5.7 level artistic performance.

  13. #33

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    I guess I don't see that quad having a high standard of artistry in ladies skating save for Kadavy and Anna Kondrashova.

    You inspired me to re-watch Liz Manley's LP again just to see if it was better than what I was giving it credit for...well...if Midori deserved a 5.6/5.7 for artistic impression, then I'd only give Manley a 5.8, if that.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  14. #34

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    Midori's choreography was jam packed with blended elements in a way never done before to music commissioned just for her, so to say she was "unartistic" is silly. She was visionary and it was everybody else that was unartistic, normal, conventional ...boring.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 08-01-2013 at 06:19 AM.

  15. #35
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    Just out of curiosity if one gave Ito a 5.9 for technical and 5.7 for presentation and Manley a 5.8 for technical and 5.8 for presentation which would have won the long program. Either way that is moot for me as my scores were:

    Ito- 6.0 technical 5.8 presentation
    Manley- 5.8 technical 5.8 presentation (great jumps and spins but not nearly as many triples as Ito, and same # as Witt in fact, and presentation wise nice program but not super mature or stylish)
    Witt- 5.6 technical 5.8 presentation
    Thomas- 5.3 technical 5.7 presentation (love the program and wish she skated her best but way overscored for what she did that night)

    Also another question how low would Thomas have to be in the long to lose the bronze to Trenary. I think she deserved about 7th or 8th in the long if it was scored right, but I am not sure how low she would have had to be in the long for Trenary to pass her with a 4th place in the long. Her skate was a meltdown and I was shocked at her outrageous high scores for it. I love Thomas and wanted her to win that night so please dont think I am a Thomas hater.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    I also liked Anna Kondrashova's skate to "Grand Piano Being Pushed Down A Flight Of Stairs....In E Flat."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_8XhM4n6wo

    Is that by Laurel & Hardy?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrellH View Post
    Is that by Laurel & Hardy?
    I like their version better!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDE2NIujeZI

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabybackhand View Post
    Just out of curiosity if one gave Ito a 5.9 for technical and 5.7 for presentation and Manley a 5.8 for technical and 5.8 for presentation which would have won the long program. Either way that is moot for me as my scores were:

    Ito- 6.0 technical 5.8 presentation
    Manley- 5.8 technical 5.8 presentation (great jumps and spins but not nearly as many triples as Ito, and same # as Witt in fact, and presentation wise nice program but not super mature or stylish)
    Witt- 5.6 technical 5.8 presentation
    Thomas- 5.3 technical 5.7 presentation (love the program and wish she skated her best but way overscored for what she did that night)

    Also another question how low would Thomas have to be in the long to lose the bronze to Trenary. I think she deserved about 7th or 8th in the long if it was scored right, but I am not sure how low she would have had to be in the long for Trenary to pass her with a 4th place in the long. Her skate was a meltdown and I was shocked at her outrageous high scores for it. I love Thomas and wanted her to win that night so please dont think I am a Thomas hater.
    Well I'm not sure exactly where Thomas would have to be to drop out of bronze, but she would have to finish not only below Trenary but also Kondrashova and Leistner (as it was she was 4th). I don't think she was gonna finish below Leistner especially considering her rather poor skating skills in comparison to Thomas.

    Manley had the same number of jumps as Witt, but there really is no comparison with quality and diffculty levels going to Manley. I do agree with those saying Manleys choreo really wasn't anything special that year, shes done better 5.8 is right.

  19. #39
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    Oh I agree Manley's jumps were huge and great (except the maybe two footed triple lutz), much better quality than Witt who had much weaker triple salchows than just a year earlier, and much more difficult with a triple lutz included and 4 different types. Her spins were also very fast and strong. Note I did give her a much higher technical mark than Witt. My point was in saying that she only did 4 triples like Witt though is just to emphasize how she was still light years behind Ito in technical difficulty with Ito doing 7 triples, all the triples, and many difficult jump combinations while Manley didnt even do a triple-double jump combination.

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