View Poll Results: Who should have won 96 Worlds- Kwan or Chen

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  • Kwan

    81 38.76%
  • Chen

    126 60.29%
  • Slutskaya

    2 0.96%
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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    In 96 (like in 2002) the judges didn't care about the flutzes. They just gave credit for lutzes.
    We're not the judges. What we, the fans, are discussing is who SHOULD have won 96 Worlds. The judges didn't care about flutzes? Well, I think they SHOULD have.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I am sure that Chen's artistry and clean performance is the only reason why this is even debated by fans.
    All you're sure about about is the reason why YOU think Michelle or Lu should have won.

    Everything else is just nitpicking in the guise of objective justification.
    Like nitpicking about spins?

  2. #102

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    [QUOTE=duane;3979584]We're not the judges. What we, the fans, are discussing is who SHOULD have won 96 Worlds. The judges didn't care about flutzes? Well, I think they SHOULD have.



    [QUOTE]

    I was responding to your post #97 and my response to that is totally relevant, based on what YOU posted.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I was responding to your post #97 and my response to that is totally relevant, based on what YOU posted.
    Huh? You wrote that the only reason this is up for debate is because of Lu's artistry. I said it's also because of the quality of jumps.

  4. #104
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    It is funny in 96 Chen was considered to have such quality jumps, when only 2 years later she had the most atrocious jumps by far of all the top ladies even when landed somewhat cleanish.

  5. #105
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    Michelle's flutz was not that bad. the next two Olympic champions had much worse flutzes.

  6. #106

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    I'm not even going to try to assess spins, steps and spirals, but I listed the base value of the jumps they attempted below. I'm not going to deal with whether or not they were fully rotated, proper take off edge, etc.

    Lu Chen - 41.86, 8 jumping passes (I counted the 3sal...2a as two passes because I think it would be under today's rules), average jumping pass value 5.23
    Michelle Kwan - 42.84, 8 jumping passes, average jumping pass value 5.35

    Chen would have had better GOE on the jumps, there entrances seemed basically equal, but a couple of Michelle's landings were just a tiny bit off or without much runout.

    Michelle would have clobbered her on the spins.

    Chen seemed to have an advantage on ice coverage, but it's hard to say. Speed is so valued now, I think Chen would have won PCS.

    This would have been insanely close under any scoring system.


    Who voted for Irina? Awww geez!
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickmercer View Post
    Chen was the clear winner. I am surprised it is such a close poll. One of many titles and medals Kwan was gifted throughout her career being the judges pet she was.
    Is that how she won two Olympic gold medals? Oh wait...

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Is that how she won two Olympic gold medals? Oh wait...
    Two "Olympic gold medals"? You probably meant two Olympic medals?

  9. #109

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    I think giselle was being sarcastic, you know ... because of all those "gifted titles" Kwan won (hence the 2 Olympic "golds" comment).

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Likewise skaters who had an extremely true lutz like Nikidinov, Chen, Suguri, Butyrskaya, were in no way extra credited for that back then, as it simply wasnt important.
    Suguri, a true Lutz ? I'd say it's not better than Sasha Cohen's :
    http://youtu.be/IOTgdkCbcW0?t=33s

    And I love Angela Nikodinov's skating, but her Lutz was questionnable :
    http://youtu.be/TRZwjvMaVaQ?t=6m14s

  11. #111

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    Double Post.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 08-25-2013 at 03:50 PM.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    We're not the judges. What we, the fans, are discussing is who SHOULD have won 96 Worlds. The judges didn't care about flutzes? Well, I think they SHOULD have.


    All you're sure about about is the reason why YOU think Michelle or Lu should have won.


    Like nitpicking about spins?
    Looks like I hit a nerve.

    People who bring up the spins are probably doing so to explain why the judges may have given Kwan the nudge over Chen outside the extra triple or the better season. My comment was really only about why some fans get so passionate about this debate. If Chen didn't give such a sublime, artistic performance, people (the general people, not including outliers), outside the obvious Kwan haters who posted in this thread, wouldn't be arguing about this competition at least twice a year on this forum. I believe it's Chen's artistry that inspire so many people to keep talking about this competition.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Suguri, a true Lutz ? I'd say it's not better than Sasha Cohen's :
    http://youtu.be/IOTgdkCbcW0?t=33s

    And I love Angela Nikodinov's skating, but her Lutz was questionnable :
    http://youtu.be/TRZwjvMaVaQ?t=6m14s
    Hmm you are right. I was never a big enough Fumie fan to scrutinize her as closely I guess. It is still better than Cohen's though. By 2005-2006 standards I dont believe she was ever given -GOE for a clean lutz, while Sasha was everytime.

    I do think for 90s standards Nikidinov had a truer lutz takeoff than most though.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post

    I do think for 90s standards Nikidinov had a truer lutz takeoff than most though.
    Nikodinov, Butyrskaya, Volchkova (or was she past-90's?), Ito, Harding, Sebesteyen - all had true lutzes in the 90's.

  15. #115
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    I do remember when the Tara-Michelle rivalry was at is peak in the late 90s though Pat Lipinski and Richard Callaghan with the talk of Tara's flutz heating up, both came outwards and said emphatically "lots of skaters flutz, including Michelle Kwan" and Frank Carroll was livid and said both needed to shut up and that Kwan had a perfect lutz. The funny thing looking back now is Michelle definitely had a flutz, but it was never enough of one to be considered one by most people at the time like Tara's and worse ones than Tara's were.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I do remember when the Tara-Michelle rivalry was at is peak in the late 90s though Pat Lipinski and Richard Callaghan with the talk of Tara's flutz heating up, both came outwards and said emphatically "lots of skaters flutz, including Michelle Kwan" and Frank Carroll was livid and said both needed to shut up and that Kwan had a perfect lutz. The funny thing looking back now is Michelle definitely had a flutz, but it was never enough of one to be considered one by most people at the time like Tara's and worse ones than Tara's were.
    I never remember Pat's being included in Frank's "shut up". Though he did invite Richard C out to watch MK skate. I miss those good times.

  17. #117
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    In that program Chen had better jumps and footwork. I would say spins equal since Chen's layback was better and her flying camel was better executed than Kwan's short little death drop with like only 3 turns. Spirals to Kwan. So overall technically I would score Chen a bit higher under either 6.0 or COP. Then on the 2nd mark it is no contest. Kwan probably had the 2nd best artistic performance of the night (although Marias was close to as good or better) but Chen was far and away better, for me .2 better or a good 4-5 points better under COP.

    So Chen for me for sure.

  18. #118
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    People say Kwan had more jump content just due to the extra triple toe. No way. Chen had an extra double axel (which Kwan had to take out hers to do the triple toe after not doing the planned earlier) which is almost the same value. Then Chen had a triple lutz-double toe, triple flip-double toe, and triple sal into a double axel, while Kwan had only a triple lutz-double toe, and triple toe-double toe, so Chen with the more difficult and more jump combinations I would give the slight jump content edge.

  19. #119
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    Chen should have won easily. The fair marks would be Kwan 5.8, 5.8 and Chen 5.7, 6.0. The judges more than made it up to Chen with her gift bronze in Nagano though. The loser in all that was Maria and Irina who were robbed in Nagano and never got it made back up to them, and the big winner was Kwan who was gifted an extra world title and never had it made back to her the other way.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by OliviaPug View Post
    Yeah, well, assuming she HAD done one ... Figure skating and selective memory go together like peanut butter and jelly.

    O-

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