View Poll Results: Best ice dance team ever

Voters
435. You may not vote on this poll
  • Torvill & Dean

    120 27.59%
  • Klimova & Ponomarenko

    76 17.47%
  • Gritschuk & Platov

    30 6.90%
  • Usova & Zhulin

    4 0.92%
  • Krylova & Ovsiannikov

    6 1.38%
  • Bestiamanova & Bukin

    4 0.92%
  • Pahkomova & Gorshkov

    3 0.69%
  • Bourne & Kraatz

    2 0.46%
  • Anissina & Peizerat

    11 2.53%
  • Virtue & Moir

    122 28.05%
  • Davis & White

    56 12.87%
  • other

    1 0.23%
Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast
Results 221 to 240 of 283
  1. #221
    YEAH!
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Worshipping Grebenkina...
    Posts
    13,807
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    11008
    Quote Originally Posted by el henry View Post
    Without Torvill and Dean, there *is* NO V/M, D/W or the parade of Russians. There just isn't.
    Well, the sport existed as an Olympic sport before T&D, and the two that won before them were Russians, so I don't get that comment. T&D were innovators, so the sport wouldn't have existed the same way without them. The same could be said about G&P. Maybe twizzles wouldn't be an element had it not been for G&P. But surely the sport would have existed and there would have been great dance teams without T&D, IMO. P&G and M&M were very creative and interesting to watch in the pre-T&D days. I'm not trying to take away from T&D's legacy, but like someone else said, other pairs teams are ranked higher than the Protopovs by some people. I think there is a tendency for T&D fans to make very bold statements that anyone who doesn't agree that T&D were the best at X doesn't know what they are talking about. A similar discussion took place in another thread, about CDs IIRC. And I did not watch T&D in their heyday because I was too young, so yeah, I don't have the same perspective. There is no doubt that they are one of the greatest dance teams but I think there is room to have a different opinion on who is #1 depending on what a poster values.

    FWIW, in an interview this year Tatiana Navka said the 3 teams who changed the sport in her opinion were P&G, T&D, and V&M.

    Sadly there doesn't seem to be much footage of P&G or ice dance in general from before 1976. I would love to see what it looked like before and during their career to gauge how innovative they really were. I've seen people credit T&D for being the first dance team to use one piece of music straight through for an FD, but P&G did that as well with Masquerade Waltz. T&D did have a storyline though, while P&G's I think was just a waltz (but maybe there was some deep storyline reported in Russian media that we didn't know about). I think P&G get a little undervalued because of the lack of footage and English language resources about them. With T&D we already had a good idea of what ice dance looked like 8 years before them so we have a good sense of how it changed, and there were many documentaries made at the time in which they discussed their process in painstaking detail, as Dean loved to do. I think that contributes a lot to the perception that they invented modern ice dance. With that said, all of the Russian skaters also idolized T&D, so I'm not trying to suggest that their Anglo-ness is the only reason. It's just really hard to compare their innovations to P&G's.

  2. #222

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    8,729
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1795
    I think you miss some big names in this voting.
    First of all, Pakhomova-Gorshkov. It was pure dancing, perfect style, music feeling, sence of rythm, deep emotions. I know, most people didnt saw them. but you could check videos on youtube. They are only one who show DANCING on ice.
    Moiseeva-Minenkov. There long lines were die for, innovated programs for example this one were innovative for that times
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxTstLn5oso
    Annenko-Stretensky. Style, liknes. Sad they were only number 3 in team USSR yeam, nut there basics were amazing.
    And bigest lost for ice dancing - Silvershtein-Pekarek. What a potential

    I disagree with people who start talking about TD are on the top just because they won over Russians. No. There edges, soft knees, clean skating + super-innovation (years. maybe they show it during professional career, but look like all liftes were invented by Dean).
    KP - its all about high skating quality, classical style, best ever lines. Maybe they are better then TD in tech, but weasnt so innovative.
    I think GP have not a lot off voices because a lot off people were upset, when they won over TD in 94.
    I think GP its what you call "voidy". After clean, classical KP people maybe want to see more expression, more power. But i am happy. that in the voiting like this not only medals important. What a differecnt between BB and GP?
    I think DW are also in this group - something against "boring classics". I am happy DW and VM not together in this voting.
    As for VM. There skating skills really one of the best ever.

  3. #223
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    With that said, all of the Russian skaters also idolized T&D,
    I'm not sure if all of them, but definitely many of them. BTW have you read what Zueva said about them in the her last interview posted on this forum? Their work ethic was just incredible.

    I think you miss some big names in this voting.
    First of all, Pakhomova-Gorshkov.
    Actually they are included in the voting list. But only 3 people have voted for them, so far.

  4. #224

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    My old Kentucky home, far away
    Age
    37
    Posts
    4,429
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5515
    Would someone please explain to me slowly and with visual aides in what universe are Virtue and Moir better than Torvill and Dean.
    'Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.'--John Wayne

  5. #225
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I didnt vote for them (I voted for K&P I believe), but I dont see why anyone is surprised V&M are close to the lead in this poll. I was never their biggest fan, mostly since Scott Moir is a bigger douchebag than Patrick Chan which is hard to imagine, but they are an absolutely gorgeous team. They might be the most polished and beautiful team ever, and yet they are technically outstanding too at a time the level of technical merit in dancing has never been higher. They also have been willing to take chances and experiment with different types of programs, even risking their own status and title chances in doing so, like Carmen last year. It was far easier to be innovative and do anything you wanted when T&D competed than it is today with the suffocating rules of dance. I was glad to see them lose often to D&W the last 2 years just because I think his ego which is the size of Mount Everest needed a check, but I can easily see why may would consider them perhaps the best ever.

  6. #226
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    In the mountains, where hippies and hillbillies collide!
    Posts
    6,658
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I voted for B&B. I don't think they are the best in history, but I didn't think it was right for them to have zero votes. They are much better, more creative, and have a better career than many on this list. Besides, I always have a hard time deciding between G&P, K&P, T&D, and V&M.
    I'm glad you did. I wish I noticed that because their strengths are not acknowledged enough on here - it's not like the judges didn't see some things they were doing better than others in that area, and I appreciate them so much for what they bring.

    I still voted for K&P basically because no one can move like them, closest being V&M (but they had all that zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzueva choreography )

  7. #227
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    B&B are a team whose legacy has not stood up well over time. I am not entirely sure how they were viewed when they were dominating, but it seems today people roll their eyes and just say "ridiculously held up" and move on. G&P to a degree that is the case for too.

  8. #228
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Marseille
    Posts
    1,054
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    1. T&D lost to G&P only once. They even beat G&P to win Europeans that year. So G&P never dominated them. They went 1-1 in their only ever 2 meetings.

    2. T&D were in their mid 30s and past their prime by then, so no losses by them can be judged at that stage. It is remarkable they were even still competitive with teams like G&P and U&Z. Granted G&P werent really in their primes yet either, and U&Z (marital and coaching problems) probably werent as well.
    If you count the Olympic team event, D/W didn't dominate V/M for as long as people say, even if they outscored V/M, D/W were still behind V/M in medal as they won bronze and V/M won silver and that is why V/M are more decorated Olympians than D/W 1 gold/2silvers is worth more than a medal of each colour or a gold and a bronze. Without the team even it is different. T&D had it worse they got bronze - even with their problems U&Z and G&P still beat Olympic champions. I have a feeling people who are saying V&M & T&D are uncomparable will probably be eating their words in 10 years or more. It is hard to get perspective now right after Sochi.

  9. #229

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Well, the sport existed as an Olympic sport before T&D, and the two that won before them were Russians, so I don't get that comment. T&D were innovators, so the sport wouldn't have existed the same way without them. The same could be said about G&P. Maybe twizzles wouldn't be an element had it not been for G&P. But surely the sport would have existed and there would have been great dance teams without T&D, IMO. P&G and M&M were very creative and interesting to watch in the pre-T&D days. I'm not trying to take away from T&D's legacy, but like someone else said, other pairs teams are ranked higher than the Protopovs by some people. I think there is a tendency for T&D fans to make very bold statements that anyone who doesn't agree that T&D were the best at X doesn't know what they are talking about. A similar discussion took place in another thread, about CDs IIRC. And I did not watch T&D in their heyday because I was too young, so yeah, I don't have the same perspective. There is no doubt that they are one of the greatest dance teams but I think there is room to have a different opinion on who is #1 depending on what a poster values.

    FWIW, in an interview this year Tatiana Navka said the 3 teams who changed the sport in her opinion were P&G, T&D, and V&M.

    Sadly there doesn't seem to be much footage of P&G or ice dance in general from before 1976. I would love to see what it looked like before and during their career to gauge how innovative they really were. I've seen people credit T&D for being the first dance team to use one piece of music straight through for an FD, but P&G did that as well with Masquerade Waltz. T&D did have a storyline though, while P&G's I think was just a waltz (but maybe there was some deep storyline reported in Russian media that we didn't know about). I think P&G get a little undervalued because of the lack of footage and English language resources about them. With T&D we already had a good idea of what ice dance looked like 8 years before them so we have a good sense of how it changed, and there were many documentaries made at the time in which they discussed their process in painstaking detail, as Dean loved to do. I think that contributes a lot to the perception that they invented modern ice dance. With that said, all of the Russian skaters also idolized T&D, so I'm not trying to suggest that their Anglo-ness is the only reason. It's just really hard to compare their innovations to P&G's.
    Pakhomova-Gorshkov were the first Olympic champions in ice dance. I have seen only one program of theirs- Masquerade waltz and it was lovely. The sport has changed so much over the years that it's hard to compare them with recent teams like V&M. They were the greatest of their era, and they paved the way for all who came after them. Sadly Lyudmilla Pakhomova died young, so may be that's why we don't see much footage of their skating.

    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I think you miss some big names in this voting.
    First of all, Pakhomova-Gorshkov. It was pure dancing, perfect style, music feeling, sence of rythm, deep emotions. I know, most people didnt saw them. but you could check videos on youtube. They are only one who show DANCING on ice.
    Moiseeva-Minenkov. There long lines were die for, innovated programs for example this one were innovative for that times
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxTstLn5oso
    Annenko-Stretensky. Style, liknes. Sad they were only number 3 in team USSR yeam, nut there basics were amazing.
    And bigest lost for ice dancing - Silvershtein-Pekarek. What a potential

    I disagree with people who start talking about TD are on the top just because they won over Russians. No. There edges, soft knees, clean skating + super-innovation (years. maybe they show it during professional career, but look like all liftes were invented by Dean).
    KP - its all about high skating quality, classical style, best ever lines. Maybe they are better then TD in tech, but weasnt so innovative.
    I think GP have not a lot off voices because a lot off people were upset, when they won over TD in 94.
    I think GP its what you call "voidy". After clean, classical KP people maybe want to see more expression, more power. But i am happy. that in the voiting like this not only medals important. What a differecnt between BB and GP?
    I think DW are also in this group - something against "boring classics". I am happy DW and VM not together in this voting.
    As for VM. There skating skills really one of the best ever.
    I loved Annenko & Sretenski. It's a pity that they were the #3 Russian team in 88, and they didn't stick around for 92. In any case, with K&P around, I doubt that they would have won the gold, but they could have been Russia's #2, competing against newly emerging U&Z who were also an outstanding ice dance team. Such a wealth of talent Russia had in ice dance those years!



    Quote Originally Posted by ChelleC View Post
    Would someone please explain to me slowly and with visual aides in what universe are Virtue and Moir better than Torvill and Dean.
    T&D were very innovative and they changed ice dance forever. However, V&M are a beautiful ice dance team, with great basics, posture, lines, but perhaps less excitement than T&D. In 1994 in particular T&D were not as great as they were in 1984. So if you compare T&D in 1984 with V&M in 2010, V&M would be better (I realize this is not a fair comparison )

    Quote Originally Posted by Taso View Post
    I'm glad you did. I wish I noticed that because their strengths are not acknowledged enough on here - it's not like the judges didn't see some things they were doing better than others in that area, and I appreciate them so much for what they bring.

    I still voted for K&P basically because no one can move like them, closest being V&M (but they had all that zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzueva choreography )
    I voted for K&P as the best ever. They had the best technical skills- postures, edges, turns, movements, and artistry. They brought drama to their skating. Their My Fair Lady, Bach FD and some of their pro routines are among my all time favorites. V&M's programs after 2010 didn't grow on me, but in 2010 I loved them.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    B&B are a team whose legacy has not stood up well over time. I am not entirely sure how they were viewed when they were dominating, but it seems today people roll their eyes and just say "ridiculously held up" and move on. G&P to a degree that is the case for too.
    B&B are disliked on fsu, but they were the dominant ice dance team after 1984 because they had more speed and power than any other ice dance team at that time. They were legit OGM winners in 1988, IMO even though I preferred K&P, A&S and W&M in style. I particularly appreciated what B&B did after turning pro. They experimented and brought many original ideas to their programs. Unfortunately the judges didn't like the creativity, and they were always pushed down.

  10. #230

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,857
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40880
    I guess it's hard for me to give B/B credit because I thought K/P were better both in style, line, unison, movement, and technical difficulty with complexity. I also thought they were musically superior, had a much stronger connection, and danced to the rhythms better than B/B. I will say that B/B had speed and power and sold their routines like nobody's business. Basically, they skated like champions while K/P skated like dancers. K/P took more of the "let the dance do the talking" approach which requires people to look beyond the dramatics and is therefore harder to appreciate.

    I actually think K/P's more traditional, ballroom style dances before 1991 are very under appreciated. The Duchenay's brought rawness and emotion to their programs, but I didn't think K/P really lacked emotion. They just decided to portray a different style. Sandra Bezic said it well during 1990 Worlds where she said that although K/P might have been outperformed by the Duschenays, they were not out skated. Their art was in the blades, carriage, unison, and perfect connection to one another. I don't think any other ice dance has topped K/P in those regards, but V/M have come super close in putting emphasis on top-notch skating skills and line, but injuries really hurt their execution in their later years.

    I think I put K/P on the top of my list because they combined all the elements people really appreciate in dance (even those belonging in two different camps) into one great package. T/D were innovators and their inventions have influenced Ice Dance, but I think K/P really brought execution to a whole new level. They were almost perfecting Ice Dance (although there's no such thing as perfection).

    People should check out the Euros version of their Lawrence of Arabia. The content and execution of that dance is out-of-this-world.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #231
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    692
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Natalia Bestiamanova does seem like an incredibly nice person. I think that is one reason I have a soft spot for them. I think Tarasova packaged them perfectly. She highlighted their greatest strengths and camaflouged their biggest weaknesses.

  12. #232
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I am not entirely sure how they were viewed when they were dominating, but it seems today people roll their eyes and just say "ridiculously held up" and move on. G&P to a degree that is the case for too.
    So who should have been dominating over G&P at the time? B&K?

    Like someone already said, G&P brought twizzles, speed, power, technical excellence and creative moves to ice dance and they were pretty much in a league of their own for 4 years, so I don't really see who should have been above them and how they were "held up" by the judges?
    Last edited by Xela M; 04-20-2014 at 08:21 PM.

  13. #233
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    692
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    It would be horrible if D&W climb to 3rd place in this poll as that would mean no Soviet or ex Russian team would be top 3 in votes. Russia is still the greatest overall country in ice dance history and it would be horrible to see they have nobody even considered top 3 all time anymore. When you think about it Russia is the greatest skating country ever in 3 of the 4 disciplines- pairs, ice dance, and probably even mens. What an incredible skating country, with so many all time greats, except in ladies where they only have 1- Slutskaya.

  14. #234
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    It seems to me that the judges mistook all that dramatic thrashing about as content concerning B&B. I couldn't believe they finished ahead of either K&P or W&M.

  15. #235
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    745
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    So who should have been dominating over G&P at the time? B&K?

    Like someone already said, G&P brought twizzles, speed, power, technical excellent and creative moves to ice dance and they were pretty much in a league of their own for 4 years, so I don't really see who should have been above them and how they were "held up" by the judges?
    I think judgejudy27 was arguing that others would argue that they were ridiculously held up (even if that wasn't actually the case).

  16. #236
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    It would be horrible if D&W climb to 3rd place in this poll as that would mean no Soviet or ex Russian team would be top 3 in votes. Russia is still the greatest overall country in ice dance history and it would be horrible to see they have nobody even considered top 3 all time anymore. When you think about it Russia is the greatest skating country ever in 3 of the 4 disciplines- pairs, ice dance, and probably even mens. What an incredible skating country, with so many all time greats, except in ladies where they only have 1- Slutskaya.
    G&P are still the most successful team in history of ice dance no one even comes close to their record no matter how much people try to claim V&M could have done the same easily. The bottom line is - they didn't! And G&P are still the team who defeated T&D at the Olympics. They are arguably the only "unexpected" Olympic ice dance champions who came from behind to win not only over T&D but over Russia's no1 team. They will always be special.

  17. #237
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    684
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I think judgejudy27 was arguing that others would argue that they were ridiculously held up (even if that wasn't actually the case).
    I know, but (as you may have already noticed ) it annoys me when people try to discredit G&P's achievements.

  18. #238
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I think judgejudy27 was arguing that others would argue that they were ridiculously held up (even if that wasn't actually the case).
    I wasnt even inferring that on G&P. I meant in their case to a lesser degree than B&B time has not been the kindest friend to their legacy as their surprising low # of votes on this poll indicate. The perception about being a ridiculously held up team (whether right or wrong) was mostly just B&B.

    I do think people are harsh on B&B in that people dont even acknowledge their strengths and what they brought to the sport. However from a technical purist standpoint they were probably werent marked correctly in comparision to their peers. Vash01, B&B actual did very well their early years as pros and won many competitions. They lost the World Pros and Challenge of Champions to Wilson & McCall who had a genius program that year, but won everything else they were in their first 4 years as pros. It was after that their results started to suffer and the judges began to prefer Annenko & Stretenski.

  19. #239
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I will try to explain why I think T&D are the best ever. I would like to say however, that I believe people can have different opinions. So maybe I don’t understand why as many people vote for V&M as for T&D, but ok I try to respect that

    First of all I think T&D were full package. While there are/were teams who have/had perfect technique, great posture, or musicality, T&D had everything: technical difficulty, intricacity, style, musicality, unison that probably no other team ever matched. They also were the greatest innovators. They changed character of ice dancing forever. Before them not many people even watched ice dancing, because it was considered to be boring. Even if some of you don’t think so, it was the fact. When it comes to popularity, ice dancing was always far behind single skating or pairs. T&D changed this (I think today ice dance is the least popular discipline again). Suddenly viewers fell in love with ice dance. Many people who even knew nothing about figure skating, heard about Torvill and Dean. Even now when I ask some people who are not interested in sport, the probability that they may know something about T&D, rather than V&M is so much higher (I don't live in UK). We cannot forget that T&D created their own choreography. Have V/M ever done it? I don’t know, maybe they have. But I haven’t heard about it.

    They were also one of the most (if not the most) versatile dancers ever, especially if we take into account also their professional career. They could dance in any style. Someone in another forum made such a list of their different styles. I’m citing “they've done passionate (e.g. Bolero, I would add here Rumba as well); sensuous and slow (e.g. Summertime, I would add Encounter); powerful & almost violent (e.g. Paso Doble, Revolution); slapstick humour (e.g. Diablo Tango); ballroom (e.g. Fred & Ginger, Face The Music); Irish folk (e.g. Echoes of Ireland); playful (e.g. Hat Trick), jazz (e.g. Take Five), emotional (e.g. Missing), etc”. These are just examples, the list is much longer.
    I think that although V/M have danced different routines, when it comes to versatility, they are incomparable with T&D.

    These are just some arguments, but if it was necessary and had time, probably I could think about some others.
    Last edited by coraczek; 04-21-2014 at 12:29 PM.

  20. #240
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    692
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I didnt even like Torvill & Dean and their programs as much as Blumberg & Seibert. Blumberg & Seibert were by far my favorite dance team of the first half of the 80s. Ice dance is easily the most subjective sport.

    V&M have not been ahead or tied with T&D on this poll even once anytime I looked though. So I dont know what anyone is complaining about. I find V&M overrated too however. I think D&W have surpassed them and are now the better team, not only today, but for their careers. I am very surprised to see D&W so far behind V&M on the poll. I guess people were living under a rock while D&W were kicking their asses in competition after competition for a few years now, or subscribe to the poor "waah V&M were robbed always, should win everything" typical Canadian crybabying that Canadians always do when their heroes lose in skating. I am surprised Chan and Scott Moir didnt cry for and get a 2nd OGM like Frechette, Jamie Sale, and most Canadians get when judges only give them silver in a judged sport.

Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •