View Poll Results: Who should have been given bronze by judges for their skates in Nagano

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  • Butyrskaya

    84 53.50%
  • Slutskaya

    53 33.76%
  • Chen

    64 40.76%
  • someone else

    29 18.47%
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  1. #21
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    I voted for both Chen and Slutskaya since I think it could have gone to either of them.

    I do remember some complaining at the time Maria didnt get the bronze, and I dont think anyone would have complained if she did. However I think her performance is overrated and kind of sucked. She landed only 2 of her planned 7 triples cleanly, or 3 if we credit the majorly shaky triple loop. She had 5 mistakes, and didnt even attempt a 2nd triple lutz or triple-triple. She badly two footed both her triple lutz and triple flip, and doubled her last 2 planned triples. Chen landed 7 triples, 5 of them clean, and had only 2 mistakes, and both 2 triple lutzes clean, and a triple-triple ableit not totally clean. I know Chen had poor quality jumps and really poor spins, but she did attempt and complete much more technical content, and had many fewer mistakes than Maria, and artistic wise her skate was her best unlike Maria. Slutskaya had 5 triples and a triple-triple, and the program was charming and suited to her style although her artistic was somewhat poor back then.

    Artistically Maria's performance was about 50% as strong as her 98 Europeans, 99 Worlds, and even 98 Worlds performances, so to give her a higher 2nd mark than Kwan or Chen is to say her performances at those other events must have been twice as artistic as Kwan and Chen's Olympic programs. That Maria lost the bronze by .1 with such a terrible performance shows the judges were always planning to have her on the podium with Kwan and Lipinski that year and she choked and blew it. Sometimes the judges have hard done Maria but in this occasion she had nobody to blame but herself, and I am surprised so many think she should have gotten the bronze with such a terrible skate.

    Here is how I mark the two programs:

    Short- Maria 5.7 tech, 5.8 art. Chen 5.2 tech, 5.6 art. Slutskaya 4.8 tech., 5.5 art
    Long- Maria 5.4 tech., 5.7 art, Chen 5.5 or 5.6 tech., 5.8 art., Slutskaya 5.8 tech., 5.6 art.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    I do remember some complaining at the time Maria didnt get the bronze, and I dont think anyone would have complained if she did. However I think her performance is overrated and kind of sucked. She landed only 2 of her planned 7 triples cleanly, or 3 if we credit the majorly shaky triple loop. She had 5 mistakes, and didnt even attempt a 2nd triple lutz or triple-triple. She badly two footed both her triple lutz and triple flip, and doubled her last 2 planned triples. Chen landed 7 triples, 5 of them clean, and had only 2 mistakes, and both 2 triple lutzes clean, and a triple-triple ableit not totally clean.

    No offense but I'd really like to know which competition you were watching where Butyrskaya landed only two clean triples while Chen had 5 clean ones. And how exactly did Butyrska "badly twofoot" her lutz and flip when in fact it was only a slight touch-down in both cases (even though in fact the lutz looked clean to me but it is hard to tell).

    Let's have a look Chen and her "clean" triple jumps:

    3lutz-2toe: lutz almost half a turn short so we already have the first clear mistake here
    3flip: underrotated and step-out, not much credit to give here
    2axel: only slightly underrotated
    3lutz: about 1/4 short and shaky landing, no bad attempt but not clean
    3loop: lacking 1/4
    3salchow: lacking 1/4 again
    3toe2.5toe: first jump looked clean to me but this wasn't even close to being a triple-triple

    So this program had 1-3 clean triple jumps depending on how harsh you are with underrotation.
    Presentation-wise, it was a nice program and I have no problem with the judges who gave Chen a 5.9 in the 2nd mark. But technically, this program was a disaster and not anywhere near the same level as of the LP's of Butyrskaya or Slutskaya.

    As for the question who should have been 3rd in the FS, this is a no-brainer to me: Slutskya had the best performance of the 3 skaters in this discussion and a real triple-triple late in the program. Butyrskaya had a more mature program but she looked stiff and nervous during it and skated it much better in other competitions.

    I don't know who should have gotten the bronze medal since Slutskaya had a big mistake in the SP (should have been behind Bonaly and Malinina there), but considering Chen already didn't have a great SP it definitely should not have been here, so it should have been Slutskaya or Butyrskaya.

    My marks in the FS:

    Chen 5.0/5.8
    Butrskya 5.4/5.7
    Slutskaya 5.8/5.6

  3. #23
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    I think there's only now controversy over the bronze because we've now experienced COP; with our current judging system in mind, some feel that Bute should have gotten bronze. Although people in this thread are giving their scores on a 6.0 scale, they're still analyzing jumps with their COP-savy eyes. Under 6.0, it was all about the ordinals, so the scores Chen got were relative to what others had done that night.

    Personally, I feel Chen was SO much better artistically than Butyrskaya that it was fine for Chen to get the bronze. Actually, the overall impression I get, both technically and artistically combined, is better for Chen. Trying to analyze exactly how underrotated a jump was for a competition from 1998 is pretty silly, IMO. The only jump that was probably considered to be problematically cheated was the second "3t," which was obvious to the naked eye. The other cheats were really only important to the majorly obsessed fans.
    Last edited by BmcC102; 07-17-2013 at 12:12 AM.

  4. #24
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    I don't remember it was not controversial at the time. ...
    Anyway, I would have given it to Lu Chen too
    ITA. When Lu was skating well, there was, IMO, no aspect in which stiff legged, clunky-footed Butryskaya's "artistry" was better, especially in such a mistake-filled and disappointing program.

    I had not ever heard much controversy over this medal either (nor should there have been any).
    Last edited by Susan M; 07-17-2013 at 12:39 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    I think there's only now controversy over the bronze because we've now experienced COP; with our current judging system in mind, some feel that Bute should have gotten bronze. Although people in this thread are giving their scores on a 6.0 scale, they're still analyzing jumps with their COP-savy eyes.

    If you are talking about me then I can only say that my assessments have nothing to do with CoP. Under the 6.0 judging, in the SP, underrotation of a jump was meant to be 0.2-0.3 deduction, so the same what skaters got for a step-out. Underrotation by 1/4 or more (and this is what Chen did several times) is more than just a reduction in quality, it is a fundamental flaw.


    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    Under 6.0, it was all about the ordinals, so the scores Chen got were relative to what others had done that night.

    But you still have to give out those ordinals in accordance to the rules. Just because under 6.0 lots of judges were not able to spot underrotation, that doesn't mean the the actual rules concerning underrotation should be ignored.


    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    The other cheats were really only important to the majorly obsessed fans.

    The other cheats *should* have been important to the judges as well according to the rules but the judges either chose to ignore or just didn't see the cheats.
    Last edited by David21; 07-17-2013 at 02:15 AM.

  6. #26
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    The judges did not see Hughes cheats in 2002 either.
    Also Butyrskayas slight two-footing was also a fundamental flaw. Had Bute landed the last 2 triples she would have won the medal over Chen, but her program sank towards the end.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    Also Butyrskayas slight two-footing was also a fundamental flaw. Had Bute landed the last 2 triples she would have won the medal over Chen, but her program sank towards the end.
    I remembers posters from the past saying that 6.0 regards 2 foots as a much bigger mistake than URs. The most important thing is a 1 foot landing, preferably with flow.

    With that, Bute's lutz and flip both looked questionably low with the free foot. For Chen, only the sal was suspect whereas the others were landed on 1 foot. Another issue is jump combination. Bute did not have 1 true combination, only 2 sequences. Chen on the other hand did 2 (and Slute 3).

    And since the second mark is the tie breaker and Bute was noticeably nervous and stiff throughout, I think the placement was fair. Comparing the confidence in the 1999 Worlds free and the stiffness in the 1998 Olympics free, one can understand why one garned 5.9s and the other 5.7s at best.

  8. #28
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    Had both Irinia Slutskaya and Nicole Bobek skated clean short programs, Lu Chen might have been too far behind after the short program to win a medal.
    There were others that might have placed ahead too with better short programs (Vanessa Gusmeroli? Latetia Hubert?)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I remembers posters from the past saying that 6.0 regards 2 foots as a much bigger mistake than URs. The most important thing is a 1 foot landing, preferably with flow.
    I think Marco is correct. It is my impression that under 6.0, a two-footed landing pretty much negated the jump, but a slightly under rotated jump w/ a one foot landing was seen as 'saving' the jump.

    For me, I am still of that thought process, which might be one reason why I dislike CoP technical scoring...

  10. #30
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    I thought Butyrskaya was robbed at the time and I still feel that way. The only Lu Chen LP I love is her 93-94 one, except for her Rachmaninoff which is a masterpiece. All the rest are a bit overrated to me, artistically. And as has already been mentioned in the thread, her jumping was pretty poor in 98. A lot of those jumps were underrotated, especially her joke of a 3toe-3toe at the end.
    Last edited by Sasha is DIVINE; 07-17-2013 at 05:49 PM.

  11. #31
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    I also thought Maria should have been 2nd in the short and Lu 5th behind Bonaly which would have guaranteed Maria beating Lu overall anyway. My short marks were:

    Kwan- 5.8, 6.0
    Maria- 5.7, 5.8
    Tara- 5.7, 5.6
    Surya- 5.5, 5.5
    Lu- 5.1, 5.6

    Lu was also super lucky there werent more clean shorts. Her program could easily have been 9th or 10th place had it been a well skated event. Maria would have at worst been 4th or 5th only since she was unlucky to skate so early, and could still have been 3rd in the short even had everyone skated well.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    I think Marco is correct. It is my impression that under 6.0, a two-footed landing pretty much negated the jump, but a slightly under rotated jump w/ a one foot landing was seen as 'saving' the jump.

    There is no judging system in the world, especially not 6.0, where jumps, which *might* have had a sligh touch down of the free foot (this is different from a "two foot landing"), were considered cleaner than jumps which were underroated. And in Chen's case, some of her jumps were not slightly underroated, they were BADLY underrotated.

  13. #33

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    Except in the system that awarded Chen the bronze over Butryskaya. You can say five of the nine judges misapplied the rules in place, but she received consistent tech marks all around.

  14. #34
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    Under 6.0 thinking Chen had 5 clean triples and 7 credible attempts of triples. 2 clean triple lutzes, and a clean triple-toe, with a not clean triple-triple. Butyrskaya under 6.0 thinking had 3 clean triples and 5 credible attempts of triples. Butyrskaya also skated far below her artistic potential and was stiff, slow, nervous. Maria had atleast the bronze in the bag, and had she duplicated her 99 Worlds performance she might have even snatched a few votes higher and flipped the ordinal between Kwan and Lipinski to make Michelle the winner (well that was my hope and prayer watching at the time anyway), but she gave it away with a very weak performance. I dont know why people dont just accept she gave away the medal by skating poorly, rather than making excuses for why she didnt win it.

    Had Maria landed her triple lutz cleanly and still made all her other mistakes she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria landed her triple flip cleanly and still made all her other mistakes she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria done her last triple toe she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria done her last triple loop she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria landed her first triple loop well and tacked a double toe on it she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria skated with a smidge more artistry and conviction that night she would have gotten the bronze. She had countless chances to make up the points and did everything possible to lose it.

    Chen would have come about 8th at those Games if everyone did their best but she was the only one besides Tara to truly skate her best at that event and she capatilized on others underperforming. She was super lucky I agree, but it wasnt her fault. Maria skated very poorly, and Irina did too when one factors in her short program, and both still nearly beat her. Bobek with her U.S National performances probably would have even beaten her.

    Chen was never one to get gifts by judges anyway. She even was robbed a few times in her career, like the 93 and 96 Worlds.

  15. #35
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    There were many times in her career Maria was hard done by judges, including the 96 and 97 Worlds and that is probably why some are arguing her being robbed at the 98 Olympics too. However unlike those other events she did herself in. In those other events it was the judges, but in Nagano the judges were willing to reward her, and that is shown by how high they scored her even for such a weak performance that was nowhere near her best either technically or artistically.

  16. #36
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    You're quite right; well said. Kim should have got the medal, even though she was just mastering the transition from crawling to standing at the time.
    I hear outside a million panicking birds, and know even out there comfort is done with; it has shattered even the stars, this creature at last come home to me.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Except in the system that awarded Chen the bronze over Butryskaya. You can say five of the nine judges misapplied the rules in place, but she received consistent tech marks all around.

    Sarah Hughes also received "consistent tech marks all around" most of the times she skated. Judges simply didn't spot the underrotation or chose to ignore them, I posted this already in this thread.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Sarah Hughes also received "consistent tech marks all around" most of the times she skated. Judges simply didn't spot the underrotation or chose to ignore them, I posted this already in this thread.
    I misunderstood your first post. I thought you were saying there was no judging system in the world in which an underrotated jump was cleaner than a two-footed one.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    There is no judging system in the world, especially not 6.0, where jumps, which *might* have had a sligh touch down of the free foot (this is different from a "two foot landing"), were considered cleaner than jumps which were underroated. And in Chen's case, some of her jumps were not slightly underroated, they were BADLY underrotated.
    Remember Bonaly and her 5.9s?

  20. #40
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    Bonaly was undermarked at the 93 Worlds and overmarked at every other competition of her career. That is how I would sum her up best. Her 94 Worlds LP would have seen a 5.4 or 5.5 for technical merit (a lower tech. mark than her presentation mark) had judges marked down UR and similar technical issues properly then. Not to mention her 95 Worlds LP which was littered with almost all 5.9s for technical merit to push an inspired Kwan off the podium, and nearly won her the title despite her usual deservedly low pres. marks, would have had only about 2 or 3 clean triples if judges marked off UR and similar issues correctly then. Clearly they didnt, and so that applies to the 98 Olympics too, and how people should be reasonable to look at things through a 6.0 standard and not COP.

    I dont want to take the thread off topic but I always want to slap Bonaly hard when I see her outburst at the 94 Worlds as she didnt deserve even a single 1st place ordinal at those Worlds. Even her jumps sucked that night, atleast Sato did 6 really clean ones with only one shaky landing. Much higher technical marks than Sato with that night weaker jumps, much weaker spins, much weaker footwork, much less speed and much weaker basic skating, GTFO, she was so overscored in fact. She should have chosen the 93 Worlds to behave like that if she was ever going to, as that is the only time her whole career she was genuinely robbed of anything. Well that and the 1998 Olympics short program perhaps, but it clearly ends right there.

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