View Poll Results: Kostner vs Ando- better career

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  • Kostner

    103 63.98%
  • Ando

    58 36.02%
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  1. #41
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    It is a joke Ando's PCS climbed massive 14 points in the same season
    Are you sure Ando gained as much as fourteen points on PCS in the same season? It would be unheard of.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    It is sad that this is the 1st placed LP beating two very beautiful LPs(Kim's Arirang & Kostner's Afternoon of a Faun).
    If I were a judge, I would rank like this...

    1. Yuna LP (3-3, 5 triples, 2 3Lz, 0 3F)
    2. Caro LP (2-3, 5 triples, 0 3Lz, 1 3F)
    3. Miki LP (no 3-3, no 2-3, 5 triples, 2 3Lz, 0 3F)

    Judges at the Worlds treated Miki as if being a skater who has OGM reputation
    or a currentCaro-like skater who could gain high scores even without 3-3 & 6,7 triples. LOL.
    Last edited by t.mann; 07-18-2013 at 02:10 PM.

  3. #43
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    Strange to see all these comments about Andos win at the 2011 Worlds when according to a couple posters one of her supposed advantages is none of her success is at all controversial, lol!

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.mann View Post
    It is sad that this is the 1st placed LP beating two very beautiful LPs(Kim's Arirang & Kostner's Afternoon of a Faun).
    If I were a judge, I would rank like this...

    1. Yuna LP (3-3, 5 triples, 2 3Lz, 0 3F)
    2. Caro LP (2-3, 5 triples, 0 3Lz, 1 3F)
    3. Miki LP (no 3-3, no 2-3, 5 triples, 2 3Lz, 0 3F)

    Judges at the Worlds treated Miki as if being a skater who has OGM reputation
    or a currentCaro-like skater who could gain high scores even without 3-3 & 6,7 triples. LOL.
    ok I will accept to some degree

    But maybe judges were more favorable to Ando reasonably because she was the best skater of that season. (kim had OGM last year? no matter)
    and punish yuna kim who doesn't participate in competitions in that season before World championship.

    Anyway It seems it is yuna kim's fault. If she competed in GPs, kim could have won, but regrettably she didn't
    Last edited by torren; 07-18-2013 at 03:44 PM.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Are you sure Ando gained as much as fourteen points on PCS in the same season? It would be unheard of.
    What I meant was total GOEs increase by 14.36 points from Cup of China to 4CCs, the PCS actually wentup 12.12 by the time of WC from beginning of the season even with 1 visible error and lessen BV content than her best performance at 4CCs, where Miki had the 2nd highest ladies FS ever in ISU history; without a 3:3 and benefited from nice momentum inflation to have resulted even higher score than Mao's amazing FS skate at WC 2010 with 2 triple axels.

    I went back to revisit the stats just to be precise.

    Miki Ando@ beginning of the season

    Coc 2010 SP
    TES 27.99 (Base value 27.50, GOEs 0.49)
    PCS 28.12

    Coc 2010 FS
    TES 60.56 (Base value 54.69, GOE 5.81)
    PCS 55.60


    4CCs 2011
    SP
    TES 35.69 (Base value 28.40, GOEs 7.29)
    PCS 30.89

    FS (Clean, 2nd highest FS ever recorded under ISU Ladies)
    TES 73.03 (Base Value 59.66. GOEs 13.37)
    PCS 61.73

    Total GOE diff from 6.3 to 20.66 = +14.36 climb
    Total PCS diff 83.72 to 92.62 = +8.9 climb



    World championship 2011
    SP
    TES 34.20 (BV 28.70, GOEs 5.5)
    PCS 31.38 ( + 3.26 CoC, +0.49 4CCs)


    FS (One major error)
    TES 65.75 (BV 56.69 [less BV than 4CCs], GOEs 9.06 [+3.25 Coc, -5.3 4CCs])
    PCS 64.46 (+ 8.86 Coc, + 2.73 4Ccs)

    Total PCS diff is actually 12.12 between CoC (83.72) to WC (95.84) despite less BV content compare to the 4CCs where Miki went clean.
    Last edited by os168; 07-18-2013 at 05:27 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by torren View Post
    ok I will accept to some degree

    But maybe judges were more favorable to Ando reasonably because she was the best skater of that season. (kim had OGM last year? no matter)
    and punish yuna kim who doesn't participate in competitions in that season before World championship.

    Anyway It seems it is yuna kim's fault. If she competed in GPs, kim could have won, but regrettably she didn't
    heh.. well yuna won this year's worlds without participating at the grand prix.. so.. who cares?

    anyway.. who has a better career? ando or kostner. it's a toss up. but after next year both will retire and i think kostner will have a better career overall..

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by riveredge View Post
    heh.. well yuna won this year's worlds without participating at the grand prix.. so.. who cares?

    anyway.. who has a better career? ando or kostner. it's a toss up. but after next year both will retire and i think kostner will have a better career overall..
    They are not same case at all.
    At 2011 wc, kim and miki were so close. So It was so depend on judges mind. I don't think kim would feel it as unfair or
    I understand who can think kim was winner... but not that sure. They were very close, kim was not clearly winner like wc this year, reasonably judges were favorable to Ando.
    about 2013 World, She was overwhelming winner. She had two clean program while her competitiors make mistakes. So like in this case she could be a winner clearly. But many said she was underscored in SP since she came back after 2 years, not participate at GPs. And after she wins SP, judges reward her positively in FS.
    Last edited by torren; 07-19-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  8. #48
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    It depends if you value an overall very well balanced record with lots of good medals, or 2 World titles instead of 1 but a weak career in most other ways. It is hard to say which is more valued, but many years from now it might be 2 World titles vs 1 World title looks like the better career even with the dozens of other things Kostner has achieved better. Then again some might see Kostner medalling at Worlds almost every year, and winning as many European titles as people like Witt and Henie and think that is amazing too, and not know how weak the European field was when she dominated.

    Kostner could put the argument to rest in Sochi if she does well anyway, but right now it is mostly preference and what one values in a good career.

  9. #49
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    With an Olympic medal now I would give the edge firmly to Kostner. 1 extra World title cant compensate for multiple more world medals, a grand prix final title and medals, and now an Olympic medal all together. Kostner just has had by far the more complete and rounded career, although both have had excellent ones.

  10. #50

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    Yes, Kostners Olympic bronze now puts her ahead in this comparison I think. Especially since her bronze medal performance was so impressive and against a very tough field. Whereas Mikis best Oly result is 5th against a weaker field. Another thing in Kostners favor is she has been successful for longer than MIki. Kostner has 5 world medals over 8 years whereas Miki had 3 medals in 5 years. Well, if Carolina wins in Saitama, it will settle the question for sure.

  11. #51
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    Kostner is indisputably ahead of Ando, especially because she skated incredibly well the past couple seasons, and her performances at Sochi made a very strong case for the gold.

  12. #52
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    Kostner was definitely robbed in Sochi. She should have beaten atleast one, if not both, Kim and Sotnikova. That should be factored in as well when evaluating her career. Andos 2nd World title was also questionable at best, and while it wasnt a glaring controversy there are probably more people who think she shouldnt have won it than think she should have.

  13. #53
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    If u had asked this question in 2011 I would say miki.

    But 2014 it's kostner for sure

  14. #54
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    Even discounting the number of times she was glaringly robbed in her career, Kostner has the edge on Ando in all competitions besides worlds and even at worlds she has 5 or 6 medals to only 3 for Ando. Kostner easily. Ando didnt even deserve atleast one, and maybe both, of her world titles if they were fairly marked competitions anyway.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Even discounting the number of times she was glaringly robbed in her career, Kostner has the edge on Ando in all competitions besides worlds and even at worlds she has 5 or 6 medals to only 3 for Ando. Kostner easily. Ando didnt even deserve atleast one, and maybe both, of her world titles if they were fairly marked competitions anyway.
    When was Kostner ever robbed, other than at Sochi? The only other possible case is 2010 Worlds, but there it's due to URs and not underscoring?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    Kostner, no contest, and I am speaking just results and not skating abilities which would be an even bigger gap. Kostner has about double the World medals, all those European titles, all those Grand Prix final title and medals. Except for the 2nd World title Ando has nothing on Kostner.
    Plus Kostner's results at the Olympics.

  17. #57

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    I wonder if Kostner would have had the same amount of success had Ando competed in competitive form following her Worlds win in 2011. That said, Kostner's career in the past four seasons has been incredibly impressive and IMO, she has had the better career.

    If Kostner wins another Worlds, then I think that'll just make it more obvious that Kostner had the better career (even if Adelina and Kim aren't competing) because the rest of the field is capable of high TES, high PCS, or both.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  18. #58
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    Ando has never skated at the level Kostner did at the Olympics, and even Kostner only won the bronze. So I cant forsee Ando even remaining in competitive form taking away Kostner's Olympic medal.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Ando has never skated at the level Kostner did at the Olympics, and even Kostner only won the bronze. So I cant forsee Ando even remaining in competitive form taking away Kostner's Olympic medal.
    I disagree, but I love Miki's 2007 Worlds performance. Although I am really growing to appreciate Kostner, and did enjoy her skating from the Olympics.

    2007 Worlds was the year Miki was really going for the 3Lz/3Lp, and she probably would have benefited from the current rules.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJcbAvphGpk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aK02CsBwDE

  20. #60
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    Ando never had the whole package. In 2007 she hit her jumping peak but didnt have the artistry. In 2011 she had improved her spins and presentation but didnt have great difficulty in her jumps anymore.

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