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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    God, again?
    Not to be confrontational, but I think the answer to "why are there so many of these threads?" is not God, but "the devil made me do it!"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Also how on earth was Ando's 2011 World win more convincing than Kostner's. Kostner won by a large margin, and nobody disputed her 2012 World title or even argued anyone else possibly winning. Ando barely won by a tiny point margin in both 2007 and 2011, and many argue she didnt even deserve her 2011 win despite it being an at her worst ever Yu Na Kim in 2nd place. 2011 was every bit as mediocre a field and quality event as 2012 as well. So that particular comment makes no sense. Please explain what makes Ando's 2011 World title more convincing.

    As for Kostner winning medals with mistakes, her mistakes aside her point totals for all her silver and bronze medals were all reasonably high point totals for each given point in time. She certainly wasnt as lucky as Ando winning Worlds in 2007 despite winning either program, and only gaining the points to beat Asada and Kim based on a few stupid technicalities even with their mistakes (all -3 for Asada on her triple-single jump combination in the short despite that it was executed fine apart from the popped 2nd jump, huge -GOE in addtion to the slight UR and 2F on her double axel-triple toe in the long; Kim having her very good triple salchow-double toe late not count for anything only because she happened to have her 2nd fall be on another triple lutz and it count as a sequence), and 2011 just takes the cake. Regardless of points Kostner's 2012 World title LP was a far higher level than Ando's 2011 one which also had only 5 triples, no triple flip just as Kostner had no lutz, and much poorer quality skating in every other way.
    Ando had a higher score total in 2007 and 2011 than Kostner did in 2012. Even if Kostner's win was more ahead of the rest of the field, Ando had to face Kim and Asada in 2007, and Kim in 2011 (sub-par Kim is still Kim). Kostner didn't face Ando, Kim, or top-form Asada when she won. I also think Kostner gets more credit score-wise then she deserves, but that's probably subjective and even without that factor, Kostner's win in 2012 just wasn't particularly solid. Ando's skating isn't that much weaker than Kostner. 2007 was a great competition, Scheherezade was an amazing vehicle for her and her Mendelssohn FP.

    I agree 2005 Fumie at FCC wouldn't win 2002 or 2006 Olys (based on what judges would do), but IMO her performances at 2005 deserved top spot if she skated like that in SLC or Torino.

  3. #23
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    Ando`s LP score at the 2011 Worlds was atleast 10 points higher than she deserved, and in no way did she deserve the title there (even over far from her best Kim) so who cares how the scores compare when her score wasnt in anyway legit in the first place. A 130 LP is what her long program at Four Continents `might`have deserved (of course that also got a ridiculous score of 137). Her Grand Prix final long program was even better than her Worlds long program and got a 122 vs her weaker Worlds long program which got a 130, amazing. It doesnt take a genius to see that after Japanese Nationals the JSF put their full backing behind Ando that year and she received some outrageously high scores, even for her standards, the remainder of the year. Just comparing her early season scores, when she was still winning and the one to beat that season, to her later season performances for comparable or not much better performances, makes it plainly obvious, even factoring in some slight score inflation as a season goes on is typical.

    I agree with those who say Kostner`s win in 2012 is far more impressive than Andos in 2011 for two simple facts: 1. it wasnt controversial in anyway, while Ando`s in 2011 was. 2. her long program was far superior to Andos in 2011 regardless of any joke score Ando might have received. In fairness Andos SP in 2011 was a bit better than Kostners in 2012, but not enough to make up the difference in long program quality. Well the scoring gap differential as well, but I dont even see that as important as the other two points.

    Asada was at bad or worse at the 2011 Worlds as 2012, so why even mention her. Both the 2011 and 2012 Worlds were incredibly sucky competitions in the grand scheme of things, so arguing which was more competitive is a moot point. Kostner from the 2013 Worlds would have easily won both those events despite not winning in 2013 vs the real Yu Na Kim, and based on the scores Ando`s World title in 2007 the Kostner who didnt win in 2013 wins that one as well if one wants to play the scores game.

    Kostner getting more credit score wise you think. I would say the same thing about Miki Ando over the years, except to a MUCH greater degree than Kostner. An unknown skater from a small country would get 5s in PCS for most of the material she puts out. Other than jumps there is nothing remotedly special about anything she does, and then there is the tedious two footed skating, awful posture, and often empty choreographic wise programs.

    My thread of better career between Ando and Kostner is the only valid discussion to be had between them. Better skater is a no brainer, Kostner by a country mile.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 07-18-2013 at 11:33 PM.

  4. #24
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    1. Kim

    huge gap


    2. Kwan
    3. Asada
    4. Cohen
    5. Kostner
    6. Slutskaya


    another huge gap


    7. Chen
    8. Butyrskaya
    9. Lipinski
    10. Arakawa
    11. Suguri
    12. Ando


    another big gap


    12. Hughes
    13. Meissner

    is how I would rank them if one of them had won a Worlds. Cohen with a World title would have to be right up there as she is such a special skater. Fumie still wouldnt be that special a skater, but a better one than Ando, Hughes, and Meissner had she won a Worlds.

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