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  1. #1
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    3Lutz in Short Program

    Nowdays, There are so few ladies who attempt triple lutz in short program.

    In 2013 world championship, in Top 10, Only two ladies, gracie gold and yuna kim attempted triple lutz in short program.
    In 2012-2013 GPF, Even there was no skater who attempt 3Lz in SP.

    Before rule(jump's base value) has changed, it wasn't.
    For example, when just see Ladies event in 2010 olympic... In top 10, 8 skaters attempted triple lutz in SP.
    In 2009 World, in top 10, 9 ladies attempted triple lutz in SP
    In 2008 World, in top 10, all skaters attempted triple lutz in SP. and so on...

    Isn't it something wrong? or not?

    In addition, It is not only problem about SP, overall, skaters are less attempting 3lz than past, I think the reason is that bv is low as compare to difficulty of jump.
    I think bv of 3Lutz should be higher than Now.
    Last edited by karlon; 07-19-2013 at 05:03 PM.

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    On the plus side for the ladies though, recently there are more ladies who attempt all the 5 basic triples in the long program as opposed to the years 2007-2012. From the last Worlds, in the top 10, Kostner, Asada, Murakami, Wagner, Gold, Li, Sotnikova, and Tuktamysheva all had planned the 3Lutz, 3flip, 3loop, 3Salchow, and 3toe in the LP. Only Kim and Osmond omitted one of those jumps, the 3loop for both.

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    I don't follow FS anymore (tennis is my sport. I come to the Trash Can because I still LUV discussing FS of the 1990s/early 2000s), but am to hear that so few women attempt the 3lz in the short!! It would be like hearing that few men are attempting the 3axl in the short!

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    I think the Lutz has been a problem for US Ladies forever. I think it is the scrutiny of the edge call that has put the ca-bosh on it. Too many ladies were able to get credit for a flutz in the past, so there was little to risk.

    I have always thought that before ladies can move up to Seniors they have to be able to successfully demonstrate all 5 triples. But then that's just me.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  5. #5
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    Skaters have been favouring the 3toe-3toe combo in the short, with a solo flip or loop. I think this accounts for the decrease of the triple lutz in the ladies SP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    I think the Lutz has been a problem for US Ladies forever. I think it is the scrutiny of the edge call that has put the ca-bosh on it. Too many ladies were able to get credit for a flutz in the past, so there was little to risk.

    I have always thought that before ladies can move up to Seniors they have to be able to successfully demonstrate all 5 triples. But then that's just me.
    I agree. There aren't a lot of skaters who can execute a lutz and receive full credit for it. Most are hit with "e" calls which equals -GOE and less points. Why go for something hard that you can't even do right when you can do something easier that you do well and probably get just as many if not more points? Strategy with numbers and placement of the element is what gains the points.

    I do think there should be some kind of bonus for skaters who include all 5 triples in their program. Maybe just a flat +2 points to the TES...

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    Quote Originally Posted by danafan View Post
    Skaters have been favouring the 3toe-3toe combo in the short, with a solo flip or loop. I think this accounts for the decrease of the triple lutz in the ladies SP.
    I am OK with less 3lutzes in the short given there are more 3/3s.

  8. #8
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    Ten of the 24 Ladies at 2013 Worlds who made the FS did 3T/3T in the SP, and half of the Top 10 did. Popova had one planned at Euros and Helgesson did one at Euros, and I'm assuming Helgesson hadn't planned 3T/2T at Worlds. (Popova fell on the 3T3T at Euros and netted a point for her attempt, and she may have been conservative (at least in the moment) at Worlds.

    Three Ladies in the Top 24 did 3Lz/3T in the SP (Kim, Gold, Tuktamysheva); Gedevanishvili doubled the planned 3Lz in combination (2Lz/3T). There were six other 3Lz attempts among the 31 skaters: 3Lz/2T for Marchei and Weinzierl in the Top 24 plus three who didn't make it to the FS, and Kexin Zhang popped a solo 3Z attempt. That makes five credited and two more attempted 3z's in 62 jumping passes.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by karlon View Post
    Nowdays, There are so few ladies who attempt triple lutz in short program.

    In 2013 world championship, in Top 10, Only two ladies, gracie gold and yuna kim attempted triple lutz in short program.
    In 2012-2013 GPF, Even there was no skater who attempt 3Lz in SP.
    sigh....


    Quote Originally Posted by karlon View Post
    Before rule(jump's base value) has changed, it wasn't.
    For example, when just see Ladies event in 2010 olympic... In top 10, 8 skaters attempted triple lutz in SP.
    In 2009 World, in top 10, 9 ladies attempted triple lutz in SP
    In 2008 World, in top 10, all skaters attempted triple lutz in SP. and so on...

    Isn't it something wrong? or not?

    In addition, It is not only problem about SP, overall, skaters are less attempting 3lz than past, I think the reason is that bv is low as compare to difficulty of jump.
    I think bv of 3Lutz should be higher than Now.

    I agree.
    * difficulty of the jumps : 3lutz>>3flip>>3loop>3salchow>>3toe (IMO)
    * base value : 6.0>5.3>5.1>4.2>4.1

    I think the BV of the jumps is wrong and does not reflect their real difficulty.
    The BV for a 3lutz should be higher than now, IMO.

    BTW, am i the only one who think that the bv of 3loop is way too high?
    3loop point is similar with 3flip. What the....
    That is ridiculous.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny81 View Post
    I agree.
    * difficulty of the jumps : 3lutz>>3flip>>3loop>3salchow>>3toe (IMO)
    * base value : 6.0>5.3>5.1>4.2>4.1

    I think the BV of the jumps is wrong and does not reflect their real difficulty.
    The BV for a 3lutz should be higher than now, IMO.

    BTW, am i the only one who think that the bv of 3loop is way too high?
    3loop point is similar with 3flip. What the....
    That is ridiculous.

    No, they've changed the base values of the jumps around several times and I think how it is now is the most realistic. Triple loop is almost as (or even exactly as) difficult as the triple flip.
    I remember at the beginning of CoP the base values were (lutz) 6.0-5.5-5.0-4.5-4.0 (toe). Now THAT was wrong, because there's no way the difference between tha sal and the loop is the same as the difference between loop and flip or sal and toe.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny81 View Post
    sigh....





    I agree.
    * difficulty of the jumps : 3lutz>>3flip>>3loop>3salchow>>3toe (IMO)
    * base value : 6.0>5.3>5.1>4.2>4.1

    I think the BV of the jumps is wrong and does not reflect their real difficulty.
    The BV for a 3lutz should be higher than now, IMO.

    BTW, am i the only one who think that the bv of 3loop is way too high?
    3loop point is similar with 3flip. What the....
    That is ridiculous.
    My impression
    Overrated.....3T and 3S(as a first jump) ,2A
    Decent rated..3Lo
    Underrated...3T and 3S as a second(third)jump in combo, and 3F
    Way underrated...3Lz, and 3Lo as a secondjump in combo.

    For me,3Lo seems to get strict underrotation-call thesedays so I have no problem with its basevalue.

    Vasevalue of 3T+3T combo is decent, with first 3T overrated and second 3T underrated,
    and 3Lz+2T or 3Lz is way underrated, I guess that's why few ladies do 3Lz in SP these days.
    This rating error starts already when COP starts, then coaches and skaters have come to notice this as time goes.

  12. #12

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    I'm fine with less Lz and would like to have the same credit as th 3T for a fluz or a lip. Way to many skaters get credit for 3 flips or 3 luzes, as they can't do both

  13. #13
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    That is the problem of how to penalize flutz or lip, not vasevalue. In the current rule, skaters do both Lz and F correctly, like kostner, rippon, brezina, abbott are underestimated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I am OK with less 3lutzes in the short given there are more 3/3s.
    but please let it be something other the 3toe3toe. i'm getting tired of this.
    where are the hard combos?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny81 View Post
    I agree.
    * difficulty of the jumps : 3lutz>>3flip>>3loop>3salchow>>3toe (IMO)
    * base value : 6.0>5.3>5.1>4.2>4.1
    What i find the most strange thing is

    point difference between 3Lutz and 3Lo(0.9) is same with difference between 3Lo and 3Sal(0.9).
    Really, their difference gap of difficulty is same? I'm so confused by this.

    About base values of jump, the other problems I can say ok. but about this, If possible, I want to ask skaters
    Last edited by karlon; 07-20-2013 at 12:49 PM.

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