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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    It's not been determined yet that it was pilot error. Why was the speed lower than normal? Why did the plane stall? We don't know that. Let all the facts come out before you start assigning blame.

    Also you cannot compare your daughter's learners license with a licensed commercial pilot on a major airline.
    Yes I can. My husband flies for one of the largest commercial airlines in the world. Seniority is the only thing that allows for upgrades. You can be the worst damn pilot out there but if you have seniority you can move up to captain. Above a better capable FO because you got hired before him or her. So yes the FO can save your butt, if you have two low time in the cockpit look out for your life. I live this every day. I hear about it every day. It scares me everyday. Seriously, 43 hours in a triple seven? Probably the most complex aircraft in the world's fleet today. Most people have more time playing Candy Crush.
    "awwww....shades of Janet Lynn" - Dick Button on anyone who makes more than one mistake in their program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    The pilot who was flying at the time of the crash landing had limited experience flying a 777, not limited experience as a pilot. How is he expected to gain experience flying a 777 if not by actually flying a 777? While he had not yet flown a 777 to SFO, he had flown that route as a 747 pilot and also had colleagues more familiar with the 777 with him (source 1, source 2). He was not unfamiliar with the airport and he did not treat the landing like a video game. His experience flying is a lot more extensive than your daughter's driving.

    In addition, the flight crew consisted of at least three more pilots, as is usually the case in long haul flights. And captains and first officers do, indeed, take turns both flying and handling other flight-related responsibilities (e.g. instrumentation, communications, checklists, etc.). Also, first officers may be more experienced flying a specific airliner than captains.

    Wherever you're getting your information, I would suggest finding another source.


    Let's wait for the NTSB to figure out what went wrong. It may be that the crew did not know in time that something was wrong, whether through pilot error or because of technical issues, or a combination thereof. The NTSB investigators are very good at what they do and I am sure that they will eventually get to the bottom of this - but it may take time. It's probably best not to jump to conclusions as to the cause.

    Everyone who posted about the great job the cabin crew did is absolutely right, it must have been a very difficult situation to handle so efficiently and they are to be commended.
    um that would be called flying domestic until you are proficient in the aircraft to handle international overseas 12 hour flights.
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  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatemommy View Post
    Yes I can. My husband flies for one of the largest commercial airlines in the world. Seniority is the only thing that allows for upgrades. You can be the worst damn pilot out there but if you have seniority you can move up to captain. Above a better capable FO because you got hired before him or her. So yes the FO can save your butt, if you have two low time in the cockpit look out for your life. I live this every day. I hear about it every day. It scares me everyday. Seriously, 43 hours in a triple seven? Probably the most complex aircraft in the world's fleet today. Most people have more time playing Candy Crush.
    The NYT story I linked to explains the training program Asiana uses for pilots moving to a new aircraft, as well as detailing some of the training the specific pilot underwent. Perhaps you should read it, or another credible source, before opining about how Asiana conducts pilot training and the flight crew's experience. Because regardless of what your husband does or doesn't do, your previous post included all sorts of incorrect information.

    I am sure there is much call for 777 domestic flights in a country the size of South Korea.

    Bottom line: you are not an NTSB investigator and you don't know what went wrong. None of us do at this point.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticchic View Post
    Also they are reporting that the pilot was a training pilot and there was a trainer capt in the cockpit along with another capt and co pilot. How can that many pilots get it wrong?
    With that many eyes looking out the window, it's indeed very suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatemommy View Post
    Yes I can. My husband flies for one of the largest commercial airlines in the world. Seniority is the only thing that allows for upgrades. You can be the worst damn pilot out there but if you have seniority you can move up to captain. Above a better capable FO because you got hired before him or her. So yes the FO can save your butt, if you have two low time in the cockpit look out for your life. I live this every day. I hear about it every day. It scares me everyday. Seriously, 43 hours in a triple seven? Probably the most complex aircraft in the world's fleet today. Most people have more time playing Candy Crush.
    Sullenberger said himself, not to make too much light of the flying pilot's inexperience. It's normal. It might scare you, but a more experienced pilot (even if it's a first officer training a captain) is supposed to watch out for the trainee. You can't get experience if you don't try it.

    One pilot's inexperience shoudn't have been the most important factor. It should have been the fact that 3 other pilots didn't manage to see the issue or correct the flying pilot.

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    During landing, the pilot with the 43 flying hours in 777s was being supervised by a co-pilot with many, many hours in 777s, so this co-pilot's thinking and actions at the controls need to be reviewed as well.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    The NYT story I linked to explains the training program Asiana uses for pilots moving to a new aircraft, as well as detailing some of the training the specific pilot underwent. Perhaps you should read it, or another credible source, before opining about how Asiana conducts pilot training and the flight crew's experience. Because regardless of what your husband does or doesn't do, your previous post included all sorts of incorrect information.

    I am sure there is much call for 777 domestic flights in a country the size of South Korea.

    Bottom line: you are not an NTSB investigator and you don't know what went wrong. None of us do at this point.
    Please correct away. By domestic I mean not flying over the pond, duh. Usually hubby gets these NTSB reports correct months before they come out. Been involved with aviation for 30 years, but I defer to your greater knowledge and insight.
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    Asiana Airlines CEO and board members bow in apology for crash at news conference on Monday

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOrekAtCMAAyMX6.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatemommy View Post
    Please correct away. By domestic I mean not flying over the pond, duh. Usually hubby gets these NTSB reports correct months before they come out. Been involved with aviation for 30 years, but I defer to your greater knowledge and insight.
    I guess your having been "involved with aviation for 30 years" precludes you from admitting you made at least one major error with the facts wrt to this pilot's experience.
    Visual landing conditions, except this pilot had never been to SFO except probably on a simulator.
    I certainly do not have "greater knowledge and insight" but at least I'm not making things up.
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    BuzzFeed News ‏@BuzzFeedNews 1m
    Senior pilot who oversaw the landing of Asiana 214 was on his first flight as a trainer http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9670LU20130708
    Senior pilot on crashed Asiana jet was on first training flight

    SEOUL | Mon Jul 8, 2013 10:10am EDT

    (Reuters) - The senior pilot who oversaw the landing by a more junior colleague of the Asiana passenger jet that crashed in San Francisco on Saturday was on his first flight as a trainer, the South Korean airline said on Monday.

    Asiana Airlines Inc. said that the senior pilot on the flight, Lee Jung-min, had received his training certificate in June.

    Lee Kang-kuk was the second most junior pilot of four on board the Asiana Airlines aircraft. He had just 43 hours' experience flying the long-range jet and, under supervision, was making his first landing on a Boeing 777 at San Francisco.

    Two teenage Chinese girls on their way to summer camp in the United States were killed and more than 180 injured in the crash, the first fatal accident involving the Boeing 777 since it entered service in 1995.

    "Only veterans are qualified to become flight instructors. They need to go through training to get certificates," an Asiana official said, declining to be named due to the sensitivity of the issue.

    Lee Jung-min had had clocked up 3,220 flying hours on a Boeing 777, according to the company and South Korean transport officials.

    (Reporting by Hyunjoo Jin; Writing by David Chance; Editing by Mark Heinrich)
    Last edited by dardar1126; 07-08-2013 at 10:24 PM.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by UMBS Go Blue View Post
    During landing, the pilot with the 43 flying hours in 777s was being supervised by a co-pilot with many, many hours in 777s, so this co-pilot's thinking and actions at the controls need to be reviewed as well.
    A captain is not supervised by a FO. A training captain can be on board to supervise. It is NOT the first officer's job to supervise a pilot. They are not trained, paid or required to do so. That being said it happens a lot but you won't hear about it.
    "awwww....shades of Janet Lynn" - Dick Button on anyone who makes more than one mistake in their program.

  11. #91
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    NTSB reports are public information and are not released to anyone before they are released to everyone. That's not to say someone might not have some inside info because they know someone on the investigative team but that's an anomaly.

    A captain is not supervised by a FO. A training captain can be on board to supervise. It is NOT the first officer's job to supervise a pilot. They are not trained, paid or required to do so.
    That's true on US airlines but not necessarily so on others.
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    I would like to hear more about the aircraft itself. Did they try to keep the speed where it was supposed to be but due to a mechanical problem they could not achieve it? At 4 seconds before the crash it sounds like the plane stalled. I would like to know more about that too- again, mechanical/electrical, etc. reason. I am sure the NTSB will examine that, but right now it seems a lot of people are eager to call it pilot error. It may have been a pilot error but I would rather wait for the full investigation to be complete before drawing conclusions.

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    One human error that definitely occurred, and that boggles my mind....is that several passengers took the time and trouble....after their plane crashed, tore apart, flopped around, and then finally skidded to a stand still and then started burning....to collect their luggage from the overhead bins. In some of the pictures of the aftermath you can see some survivors wheeling their bags behind them, past the wreakage.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngogl...ate-with-bags/

    It's only due to sheer luck, cabin crew expertise, and non-flammable cabin materials that the delays caused by luggage shuffling didn't cost lives. If I ever have the misfortune to be in a similar situation: anybody in between me and the exit who is reaching for their belongings is getting punched in the face.

  14. #94

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    I too was surprised to see pictures of passengers walking on the ground, with bags/briefcases in hands. This must have been a very small number though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by susan6 View Post
    One human error that definitely occurred, and that boggles my mind....is that several passengers took the time and trouble....after their plane crashed, tore apart, flopped around, and then finally skidded to a stand still and then started burning....to collect their luggage from the overhead bins. In some of the pictures of the aftermath you can see some survivors wheeling their bags behind them, past the wreakage.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngogl...ate-with-bags/

    It's only due to sheer luck, cabin crew expertise, and non-flammable cabin materials that the delays caused by luggage shuffling didn't cost lives. If I ever have the misfortune to be in a similar situation: anybody in between me and the exit who is reaching for their belongings is getting punched in the face.
    That was my thought too, but after hearing more stories, it's not clear if there were any intentional delays caused by baggage shuffling. It looks like:

    * those passengers who escaped with bags were from the front and middle of the plane (business/first classes, which are less dense), which were less damaged, and had a much easier time getting out than those pinned in the back
    * many overhead bins, in the front and back, opened during impact, sending luggage flying
    * presumably, passengers would have had to physically remove/pick up these bags to get them out of the way anyway
    * if time was in their favor, if there was not a stampede to get out of the plane from the front, if those who picked up their bags were from the front only, and if they had to pick up their bags to get them out of the way anyway, then it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to leap out of the plane with the bags in tow.

    Still, my thoughts in such a situation (if I were thinking clearly) would be to get the h*ll out of there - forget the bags.

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    My carry on bag always goes under the seat in front of me. It takes no more time and wouldn't impede anyone else for me to grab it and take it with me. If it would I'd leave it behind. It's not a wheeled case, though.
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  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by dardar1126 View Post
    Twitter:



    Senior pilot on crashed Asiana jet was on first training flight

    SEOUL | Mon Jul 8, 2013 10:10am EDT

    (Reuters) - The senior pilot who oversaw the landing by a more junior colleague of the Asiana passenger jet that crashed in San Francisco on Saturday was on his first flight as a trainer, the South Korean airline said on Monday.

    Asiana Airlines Inc. said that the senior pilot on the flight, Lee Jung-min, had received his training certificate in June.

    Lee Kang-kuk was the second most junior pilot of four on board the Asiana Airlines aircraft. He had just 43 hours' experience flying the long-range jet and, under supervision, was making his first landing on a Boeing 777 at San Francisco.Two teenage Chinese girls on their way to summer camp in the United States were killed and more than 180 injured in the crash, the first fatal accident involving the Boeing 777 since it entered service in 1995.

    "Only veterans are qualified to become flight instructors. They need to go through training to get certificates," an Asiana official said, declining to be named due to the sensitivity of the issue.

    Lee Jung-min had had clocked up 3,220 flying hours on a Boeing 777, according to the company and South Korean transport officials.

    (Reporting by Hyunjoo Jin; Writing by David Chance; Editing by Mark Heinrich)
    Zemgirl, what part of this am I wrong about? First flight as trainer and first flight into SFO
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    Yeah there were reports of numerous baggage falling down from the overhead bins during the crash, so if they were in the way, might as well toss them outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatemommy View Post
    Zemgirl, what part of this am I wrong about? First flight as trainer and first flight into SFO
    Please take the time to seek out deeper articles from reputable sources:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...044222304.html

    The co-pilot, Mr. Lee, born in 1967, was attempting his first 777 landing in at SFO, and his ninth landing overall with that model. He had previously landed the 777 at Narita in Tokyo, London Heathrow and Los Angeles. Between 1999 and 2004, Mr. Lee landed other models of passenger planes at the same airport in San Francisco.

    A Korean transport ministry spokesman said Mr. Lee had been at the controls for five hours before landing. He has 43 hours of real, non-simulated experience flying 777s, roughly the equivalent of three to four trans-Pacific flights.

    Few details emerged Monday about Mr. Lee, who joined Asiana as a trainee in 1994 and gained his pilot's license in 2001. He has just under 10,000 hours of flying time. The captain on board, Lee Jeong-min, has a 12,387 hour flight record. Born in 1964, Mr. Lee Jeong-min has 3,220 hours of flight experience in the 777 model.

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    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/unusu...ries-jet-crash

    UNUSUAL PATTERN OF SPINE INJURIES FROM JET CRASH
    By LAURAN NEERGAARD
    — Jul. 8 9:47 PM EDT

    Excerpt:

    Many survivors of Saturday's plane crash in San Francisco have a surprising pattern of spine injuries that a doctor says shows how violently they were shaken despite wearing seat belts.

    So far, two people are unable to move their legs — doctors don't yet know if the damage is permanent — and several others have needed surgery to stabilize their spines so they can move, said Dr. Geoffrey Manley, neurosurgery chief at San Francisco General Hospital who is overseeing their care.

    Among the worst injuries are crushed vertebrae that compress the spinal cord, and ligaments so stretched and torn that they can't hold neck and back joints in place, Manley said in an interview Monday.

    That 305 of the 307 passengers and crew of the Asiana jet survived the crash is remarkable, and a testimony to improvements in airline safety in recent years. More than 180 people went to hospitals with injuries, but only a small number were critically injured.

    Still, Manley said even among those who suffered mild spine trauma, he is struck by a pattern that shows how their upper bodies were flung forward and then backward over the lap belts that kept them in their seats and undoubtedly saved their lives.

    The injuries are somewhat reminiscent of the days before shoulder belts in cars, although much more severe, said Dr. David Okonkwo of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, who isn't involved with the survivors' care.

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