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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    On CNN they said that Boeing 777 is a fully automated airplane to fly, with very little hands on operation. I am wondering if it's a computer error, or do they still do the landing and take off manually?
    Re airplane automation, Patrick Smith of Ask The Pilot has addressed this subject before, and is worth reading. The short version: it does not mean that the plane flies or lands itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    OTOH, I hope it was honest pilot error and not some kind of cultural authoritarian issue. Korean airlines were notorious for crashes back in the 90s, because first officers didn't feel appropriate in overriding their captain. They finally made a concerted effort to encourage more democracy after a Korean Air cargo flight banked right into the ground thanks to an instrument failure...and a first officer unwilling to tell the captain his instrument was broken. Everyone died in the resulting explosion, but it was a cargo flight so it was only 4 crew members. (Not that 4 dead people is a good thing, but you know....)
    Cultural differences can also lead to communication issues between the flight crew and air traffic controllers, as happened famously in the Avianca flight 52 crash, and you can have a combination of pilot error/training with a technical issue (e.g. American Airlines flight 587). Obviously this isn't the same sort of crash as those two, but I guess we'll have to wait for the investigation to find out what happened. Possibly not even then.

    (yes, I've watched too much Air Crash Investigation...)

    I am very sorry for the loss of life, though relieved that it wasn't even worse. The early images looked quite scary.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 07-07-2013 at 11:05 AM.

  2. #22
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    It's amazing that so many people survived this. Very sad for the fatalities, and hope that list doesn't grow. May those critically injured recover fully & soon.

  3. #23
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    Twitter:

    BuzzFeed News ‏@BuzzFeedNews 58m
    "Feeling a little shaky from yesterday's experience..." - Asiana 214 passenger @Eunner https://path.com/p/2JhymL
    The Associated Press ‏@AP 3h
    Passengers on crashed flight from China, South Korea and U.S. , at least 5 other countries: http://apne.ws/1acIW1o -SS
    EDIT:

    The Associated Press ‏@AP 49m
    Investigators examining whether shutdown of navigational aid played role in Asiana Airlines crash: http://apne.ws/1a3K3gd -SS
    Last edited by dardar1126; 07-07-2013 at 06:50 PM.

  4. #24
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    I know someone who works in one of the hospitals who took in some of the critically injured. (You can see him in a picture in one of the news tories online.) He told us, without revealing any details that would violate HIPPA that basically everyone in his hospital was going to fully recover from their injuries baring anything unforeseen, of course. (And that's all he told us about patients -- everything else I'm about to say is from the news, not him.)

    So that's good.

    This has been a big item on the news here, obviously. To the point there the 11 o'clock news on every station we turned to was acting like CNN and their entire broadcast was devoted to it and nothing else. Not even the weather or sports. (I've never seen anything like it, in fact.) So I now know more about it than I ever expected to including:

    -Pretty much all planes would be doing manual landings in the conditions we had with no issues even if the equipment was working.

    -There were no emergency messages from the plane to the tower prior to the crash (and honestly, from the recordings they played, it sounds like none after, though it was hard to tell)

    -Tons of people on the ground who saw the plane coming in who lives around there thought the plane was coming in at the wrong angle

    -Lots of people on the plane thought it was coming in at the wrong angle, though lots had no idea anything was up either

    -The plane didn't flip over as originally reported -- that idea came from a witness who said something to a reporter to the effect of it seemed like it might of but she wasn't sure because it was hard to see through the smoke. (I think the fact that the fire burned the top of the plane contributed to that idea.)

    -There were a bunch of people on the plane who were coming to SF for some kind of children's choir/music event (a kind of camp/cultural exchange) so there more kids on board than usual (though not an overwhelming large amount, just more than usual from what I could see)

    -A lot of the serious injuries were spine compressions but a couple of people had their spines BURST (ouch! and Scary.)

    -There was absolutely no warning given to the people on the plane that anything was about to happen from the crew

    -A ton of people from the Korean community came to the hospitals to help out such as to be translators but you have to be certified to be a translator. So they told them to give blood instead. (I kind of feel bad for them that they can't use their unique skills to help.)

    -Because there were groups on the plane coming for group events, TPTB are communicating through those groups to try to get information out as a way to deal with the language barriers and also through some other community groups (I never really thought about that part of it -- that there would be problems communicating because so many foreign language speakers would be involved in the hospital.)

    Some of this I saw in online news reports, but not all of it.
    Last edited by MacMadame; 07-07-2013 at 08:55 PM.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  5. #25
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    Oh some other things I remember from the news broadcast:

    -The two dead people were found among the debris on the tarmac. (Flung from the plane?)

    -Two people were found walking out of the water but they weren't sure if they were flung there or they went in there to cool off from burns from the fire or just escape the fire

    -At one point they had 60 (!) people unaccounted for but they pretty quickly rounded everyone up and everyone was accounted for by 11 pm last night (and probably sooner)
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Oh some other things I remember from the news broadcast:

    -The two dead people were found among the debris on the tarmac. (Flung from the plane?)
    Apparently these two 16-yr-old girls were seated at the back of the plane, near where the tail broke off.

    Thanks for all the local news updates.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post

    -Pretty much all planes would be doing manual landings in the conditions we had with no issues even if the equipment was working.
    That, and the planes coming in before that plane did manage to land just fine, so I find it somewhat, let's say for the lack of a better word, ridiculous, that they're investigating if that played a role in the crash. If so, then more planes would have had difficulties, on that day and at every airport where they don't have such a system to begin with. Besides, an expert pointed out yesterday that the pilot knew enough to keep the plane level once it hit the ground and that he must have done exactly the right thing. Which suggests the pilot kept a clear head and wasn't a newbie, in which case I would think that landing without the landing system would have been a piece of cake.

    There seems to be a strong speculation that the pilot realized he was too low too soon and was trying to get the plane back up but since he was already that low and didn't have enough speed anymore, he didn't get the plane up quickly enough and the tail grazed the water barrier, causing it to rip off.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    On CNN they said that Boeing 777 is a fully automated airplane to fly, with very little hands on operation. I am wondering if it's a computer error, or do they still do the landing and take off manually?
    I've heard a some time ago that take off and landing are never done (fully) automatically/cannot be done (fully) automatically but that could have changed by now. Considering how difficult landing and take off are though and how many factors play a role, (air pressure, wind, rain, sunshine and I'm sure tarmac temperature, too, length of runway and so many other things we don't even know about) it would make a lot of sense if they still required at least some manual handling.

  8. #28
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    Update:

    LATimes: Two in S.F. plane crash are paralyzed, hospital official says

  9. #29

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    How sad for those 70 students from China who were planning to be at a summer camp to have to go through this! Two of them - just 16 years old- even lost their lives. How traumatic for the parents!

    The spinal injuries could be very serious.

  10. #30
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    CNN has video of the plane crashing. They have been looping it constantly for the last 15 minutes.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    That, and the planes coming in before that plane did manage to land just fine, so I find it somewhat, let's say for the lack of a better word, ridiculous, that they're investigating if that played a role in the crash. If so, then more planes would have had difficulties, on that day and at every airport where they don't have such a system to begin with. Besides, an expert pointed out yesterday that the pilot knew enough to keep the plane level once it hit the ground and that he must have done exactly the right thing. Which suggests the pilot kept a clear head and wasn't a newbie, in which case I would think that landing without the landing system would have been a piece of cake.
    Nobody flies 777s without having a lot of training and experience, and they work on all sorts of scenarios in the simulator in addition to logging a lot of flight hours. Whoever the pilots were yesterday, you can be certain they were experienced and qualified; of course they would know what to do when the plane hit the ground. As for the planes that landed before, were they also 777s flying similar routes? Perhaps there were technical issues and these in turn were not handled correctly by the pilots (see the example I gave above - American 587). It's really too soon to say what caused the accident, but I am sure the NTSB and everyone else involved in the investigation will do a thorough job.

    I've heard a some time ago that take off and landing are never done (fully) automatically/cannot be done (fully) automatically but that could have changed by now. Considering how difficult landing and take off are though and how many factors play a role, (air pressure, wind, rain, sunshine and I'm sure tarmac temperature, too, length of runway and so many other things we don't even know about) it would make a lot of sense if they still required at least some manual handling.
    This is why I link to Ask The Pilot, who unlike me can explain what an auto landing involves based on actual experience Again, see above.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge_Break View Post
    CNN has video of the plane crashing. They have been looping it constantly for the last 15 minutes.
    Here it is:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...red-hayes.html

    Video shows plane's moment of impact

    CNN Weekend Shows|Added on July 7, 2013
    Fred Hayes was watching planes land at San Francisco airport and filmed the Asiana Airlines Flight 214 crash landing.
    In the dust and smoke you can see why some thought the plane flipped on its back. After the initial skid, you can see the plane tilt onto one wing and the body of the plane rise at maybe a 10 degree angle (more/less?) before falling HARD back down to the ground.
    Last edited by dardar1126; 07-07-2013 at 09:59 PM.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Nobody flies 777s without having a lot of training and experience, and they work on all sorts of scenarios in the simulator in addition to logging a lot of flight hours. Whoever the pilots were yesterday, you can be certain they were experienced and qualified; of course they would know what to do when the plane hit the ground. As for the planes that landed before, were they also 777s flying similar routes? Perhaps there were technical issues and these in turn were not handled correctly by the pilots (see the example I gave above - American 587). It's really too soon to say what caused the accident, but I am sure the NTSB and everyone else involved in the investigation will do a thorough job.


    This is why I link to Ask The Pilot, who unlike me can explain what an auto landing involves based on actual experience Again, see above.
    Is that pilot trained to fly the 777? I heard it's a very different plane. As in most cases probably a combination of factors led to the crash.

    In any case, I am sure the NTSB will get to the bottom of this. The data recorders were found without much effort, and there will be lots of information to get through, so eventually they will figure out what led to the crash. In any plane crash, it is always a 'glass half full' situation when there are lots of survivors, even though that won't be any comfort to the families who lost their loved ones.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Nobody flies 777s without having a lot of training and experience,
    I'd say nobody flies overseas without a lot of experience!

    and they work on all sorts of scenarios in the simulator in addition to logging a lot of flight hours.
    That was exactly what it was about, actually, that the CNN reporter asked if they can simulate every possible accident to which the expert replied that no, not the actual accident but all the other "stuff" and that those pilots knew exactly how to handle the plane once it crashed onto the tarmac.

    Quote Originally Posted by dardar1126 View Post
    In the dust and smoke you can see why some thought the plane flipped on its back. After the initial skid, you can see the plane tilt onto one wing and the body of the plane rise at maybe 5 degree angle (more/less?) before falling back down to the ground.
    Which makes it even more amazing that no wing broke off and ripped the plane apart!

    On a different note, I've been wondering how parents cope with the fact that out of 307 passengers their children are the only two who didn't make it. While it's amazing there are only two fatalities, it seems so so cruel. Even I wonder if 305 made it why not all of them?

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post


    On a different note, I've been wondering how parents cope with the fact that out of 307 passengers their children are the only two who didn't make it. While it's amazing there are only two fatalities, it seems so so cruel. Even I wonder if 305 made it why not all of them?
    That must be even tougher to handle than if everyone (or almost everyone) had been killed in the crash. I believe eventually they will come to accept it; faith and time are the only healers. A belief in fate/destiny can help eventually but not right after a tragedy like this. I can't imagine what those parents must be going through.

  16. #36

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    Of course, the flight crew includes more than one pilot, and presumably between them they have a fair bit of experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    That was exactly what it was about, actually, that the CNN reporter asked if they can simulate every possible accident to which the expert replied that no, not the actual accident but all the other "stuff" and that those pilots knew exactly how to handle the plane once it crashed onto the tarmac.
    There have been some crazy scenarios in which pilots still managed to land the plane and minimize loss of life. Pilots at major airlines are very well-trained, as well they should be.

    From watching Air Crash Investigation, I've learned that you can definitely survive gliding 120 kilometers after running out of fuel over the ocean, landing on the open sea after a hijacking (don't inflate the life jacket until you clear the plane!), a complete loss of hydraulic control systems, and so on. OTOH, contrary to what Hollywood would have us believe, losing the tail would be a problem.

    On a different note, I've been wondering how parents cope with the fact that out of 307 passengers their children are the only two who didn't make it. While it's amazing there are only two fatalities, it seems so so cruel. Even I wonder if 305 made it why not all of them?
    It's kind of the flip of past accidents in which only a few survived, like the Japan Air Lines crash in the 1980s that killed 520 people with four people somehow surviving and a Northwest crash that had one survivor. It seems so arbitrary and cruel. And yet we should be happy that this time it was the reverse, with most everyone on the plane making it out safely.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 07-08-2013 at 05:07 AM.

  17. #37
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    Twitter:

    The Associated Press ‏@AP 44s
    MORE: Cockpit recorder from Asiana jetliner shows pilot tried to abort landing, NTSB official says: http://apne.ws/12bymip -RJJ
    Excerpt:

    Jul 7, 5:15 PM EDT

    Official: Asiana flight tried to abort landing

    By JASON DEAREN and JOAN LOWY
    Associated Press

    SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A federal safety official said the cockpit voice recorder from Asiana Airlines Flight 214 showed the jetliner tried to abort its landing and come around for another try 1.5 seconds before it crashed at San Francisco airport.

    National Transportation Safety Board chief Deborah Hersman said at a news conference Sunday the recorder also showed there was a call to increase airspeed roughly two seconds before impact.

    Before that, she said, there was no indication in the recordings that the aircraft was having any problems before it crashed Saturday, killing two passengers and injuring scores of others.
    EDIT: Finished reading the entire article; it is long, thorough and detailed...an excellent overview of the accident and the aftermath.
    Last edited by dardar1126; 07-07-2013 at 10:40 PM.

  18. #38
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    They were calling for a go-around 1.5 seconds before impact? That's insane. From the angle they were coming in, the only thing they should have been saying at that point in time was "Jesus take the wheel." Observers on the ground were noticing the "wrong" angle of approach way before then. I'm wondering if there was some sort of instrument malfunction that was telling the pilots that they had more height than they did (like in Die Hard 2). Granted, the view out of the cockpit window should have pointed out the problem, but some pilots may prefer to fly by instrument readings.

    Whatever the case, major props to the materials scientists and engineers who designed and put together that fuselage. The fact that it held together saved a lot of lives.

  19. #39
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    They said on ABC that the plane was probably traveling at about 150 mph when it hit the ground! I was once in a low-impact/low-speed collision and remember how jolted I was and how it felt to be slung into the seat belt so hard...I can't even imagine on that plane. And, of course, the overhead bins opened and luggage fell on to the passengers and into the exit aisles.

    Pic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOmrTBwCcAARecz.jpg

    It is a tribute to that flight crew that they got everyone off that plane!
    Last edited by dardar1126; 07-07-2013 at 11:53 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dardar1126 View Post
    Wow, could the woman in this video sound any less sincere? She mostly just sounds excited that the guy near her happens to be filming it at the time...

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