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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I would guess that shoulder belts would be difficult if not impossible to install with the types of seats used in economy, and installing different seats would necessitate reduced capacity in economy, resulting in higher ticket prices. I haven't flown first or business in a long time and have no idea if this is unique to Asiana, perhaps only used for longer routes or in certain airplanes, etc.

    But this is not the equivalent of the Titanic, it's not as if economy passengers are blocked from evacuating until first class passengers do, or not given, say, access to life jackets.

    As for brace position, I don't think they knew what would happen until it was too late to prepare the passengers.
    There were a couple of things passengers said almost immediately that struck me (and didn't get a lot of follow-up by their interviewers).

    One was that the first responders took a long time to get to people lying on the ground. This would seem to be true.

    The second was (and I'm paraphrasing) that on the plane, people's heads seem to fly upwards.

    I don't know physics and I certainly don't know whether the front of the plane went through a different experience than the middle (where the fire seems to have been). But if (and this is a very big if) business/first class passengers endured the same crash experience as the tourist class, and (continuing the ifs) if the spinal injuries were limited to people in tourist class, then the difference between shoulder harness/seat belt, and merely seat belt is significant.

    I assume those questions are under examination by people who understand a lot more than I do.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post

    But this is not the equivalent of the Titanic, it's not as if economy passengers are blocked from evacuating until first class passengers do, or not given, say, access to life jackets.
    No one said it was the equivalent of the Titanic, at least, I didn't think anyone did. But the general principle is the same. Those with money were obviously better protected and in certain accidents that may result in them having a better chance of survival (as they maybe may be less injured and able to evacuate by themselves while others may remain stuck in their seats because they would need assistance.)

  3. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    I don't know physics and I certainly don't know whether the front of the plane went through a different experience than the middle (where the fire seems to have been). But if (and this is a very big if) business/first class passengers endured the same crash experience as the tourist class, and (continuing the ifs) if the spinal injuries were limited to people in tourist class, then the difference between shoulder harness/seat belt, and merely seat belt is significant.
    More likely it had to do with their location on the plane. There have been cases where the only survivors were nearer the back of the plane (e.g. Japan Airlines 123) or where the majority of those who survived were seated near the back (e.g. Avianca 52) or in the middle (United 232). It really depends on the type of impact and the damage.

  4. #144
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    Long read:

    http://seattletimes.com/html/nationw...inercrash.html

    Originally published July 11, 2013 at 5:45 AM | Page modified July 11, 2013 at 7:42 AM

    Asiana passengers called 911 begging for help
    Passengers who called 911 minutes after a Boeing 777 crashed at San Francisco International Airport said not enough help had arrived and they were doing their best to keep the critically injured alive, according to 911 calls that portray a scene of desperation.

    By MARTHA MENDOZA
    Associated Press

    Excerpt:

    SAN FRANCISCO —
    Passengers who called 911 minutes after a Boeing 777 crashed at San Francisco International Airport said not enough help had arrived and they were doing their best to keep the critically injured alive, according to 911 calls that portray a scene of desperation.

    Asiana Airlines Flight 214 crash-landed Saturday when it came in too low and too slow, killing two passengers and injuring many others as it skittered and spun 100 feet.

    "We've been on the ground, I don't know, 20 minutes, a half hour," one woman said in a 911 call released late Wednesday by the California Highway Patrol. "There are people laying on the tarmac with critical injuries, head injuries. We're almost losing a woman here. We're trying to keep her alive."

    Another caller told a dispatcher: "There's not enough medics out here. There is a woman out here on the street, on the runway, who is pretty much burned very severely on the head and we don't know what to do."

    The dispatcher told the caller: "OK. We do have help started that way. You said that they're there, but there's not enough people, correct?"

    "Yes," the caller said. "She is severely burned. She will probably die soon if we don't get help."

    The dispatcher responded: "We are working on getting additional ambulances to you."

    San Francisco officials said ambulances could not come too close out of concern that the plane would explode.

    Authorities have said that during the chaos, one of the emergency response trucks might have run over one of the two Chinese teenagers killed in the crash.

  5. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by missing View Post
    I always fly tourist class, so it's never occurred to me that other passengers have shoulder belts.

    I find it very upsetting to learn that there are two levels of safety on a flight.

    It makes me think of the Titanic. First class passengers allowed onto the life rafts, third class passengers kept from them.
    I had flown business class (international) and first class (domestic) many times but that was many years ago. The seat belts were similar those days regardless which class you flew. I was surprised when I saw in the interview of Mr.Rah on CNN that he had a shoulder belt in addition to the usual seat belt and it kept his head from hitting the roof.

    I feel it's unfair to offer different kinds of safety protection to passengers in different classes. Either provide shoulder belts to all or take them away from the upper classes. I realize that it would be difficult to install shoulder belts in economy, and the upper classes will create an uproar if their extra protection is taken away. May be this will be the next challenge for airlines to make all seats safer than they are right now. Obviously it means they will have to spend more money and the ticket prices will go up dramatically.

  6. #146
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    What about installing shoulder belts in economy is so difficult? Not the cost but the logistics and engineering.
    3539 and counting.

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  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    What about installing shoulder belts in economy is so difficult? Not the cost but the logistics and engineering.
    Anytime you have to come up with engineering solutions, then implement them on such a massive scale, there is going to be a substantial cost involved. However, there could be a solution to it, if enough resources are put into it. The initial cost will be high but with economy of scales in manufacturing, the increase in air fares may not be that high.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    What about installing shoulder belts in economy is so difficult? Not the cost but the logistics and engineering.
    Here's an article with discussion of the issues around upgrading airplane seat belts.
    Today’s airplane lap belts are designed to restrain 6,000 pounds of force, said an airline seat engineer interviewed by NBC News who asked not to be identified. He said harness belts might be safer, but they are far more challenging to install on an airplane than in a car. “You need something to attach the shoulder strap to. In a car, you can secure it to the frame. In an aircraft, it is difficult to supply an attachment for an over-the-shoulder belt. It could be done with a reinforced seat, but that would be larger and heavier," he said.
    Larger and heavier seats mean more fuel required per flight. Basically, economics seems likely to be the primary reason.
    Lady 2: there isn't anything about me on goooogle, I mean, I must take it off if there is.....
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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    More likely it had to do with their location on the plane. There have been cases where the only survivors were nearer the back of the plane (e.g. Japan Airlines 123) or where the majority of those who survived were seated near the back (e.g. Avianca 52) or in the middle (United 232). It really depends on the type of impact and the damage.
    Yes. Actually, in most of the crashes that have occurred in modern times, it's actually safer to sit in the back, because the plane usually hits something nose-first. Tail strikes are a lot rarer.

    There have been times where airbags and/or seat belts have injured or killed someone instead of protecting them, but it's rare.

  10. #150
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    That's what I thought - it all comes down to cost.
    3539 and counting.

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  11. #151
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    From the Wall Street Journal:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...567963334.html

    Chest harnesses are rare for airplane passengers. They tend to be used in seats where passengers could slam into a bulkhead or a lie-flat bed pod without them, industry experts said. Restraints for pilots and flight attendants are commonly designed with chest harnesses.

    Widespread installation of chest harnesses is deemed impractical, experts said, in part because seats would have to be redesigned with rigid seat backs to hold passengers during a crash. Seats where lap belts are used are now designed so that in a crash, passengers are cushioned by the seats in front of them. The seat back is designed to fall forward, absorbing the blow. Such a redesign would add to seats' weight and require a heavier mounting system and floor frame, experts said.

    William McGee, an author on aviation based in New York, said he believes airlines have been hesitant to install chest harnesses for everyone because the belts' weight and equipment needed to secure them would add to fuel costs.

    An Asiana spokesman said the Korean airline installs harness belts only in certain areas of business class where soft material such as a seat in front isn't available to cushion a passenger's impact. "In certain areas of business class the surroundings are hard material," said the spokesman, who declined to be identified. "In those areas, harness belts are needed." The spokesman added the harness belt holders would protrude in economy-class seats, presenting a possible danger to passengers. As the belt situation now stands, he said, "Regardless of whether it's a lap belt or a harness, protection is guaranteed."
    Still, there is no assurance wearing a chest harness would prevent injury. When cars changed from lap belts to shoulder harnesses, "what that ended up doing was changing the nature of the injury," said Geoffrey Manley, chief of neurosurgery at San Francisco General. "We saw the injuries moving up higher."

  12. #152
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    Twitter:

    Breaking News ‏@BreakingNews 5m
    NTSB: No anomalies in the operation of auto-pilot, auto-throttle, flight director systems on Asiana jet - @nbcbayarea http://bit.ly/10PCmaS
    New York Daily News ‏@nydailynews 1h
    All #Asiana214 passengers were evacuated before aircraft fire became "very significant." -@NTSB
    NewsHour ‏@NewsHour 4m
    NTSB: Asiana pilot said he saw a "bright light" before the crash. No other crew members mentioned a light source http://bit.ly/13E9s1m
    EDIT:

    Photo by @NTSB of @AsianaAirlines Flight 214 debris field at SFO

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BO7MmDuCQAAlXr8.jpg
    Last edited by dardar1126; 07-12-2013 at 12:57 AM.

  13. #153
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    .As the belt situation now stands, he said, "Regardless of whether it's a lap belt or a harness, protection is guaranteed.
    Really?
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by UMBS Go Blue View Post
    From the Wall Street Journal:
    Seats where lap belts are used are now designed so that in a crash, passengers are cushioned by the seats in front of them.
    Adults are cushioned, children are not. Granted, it was in 1990 but the pilot had to slam on the breaks as we were taxing, causing everyone on the plane to be thrust forward and I hit my head so hard on the tray table that I had a concusion. (and my mom did make sure that I was strapped in tightly! I remember, I always had to pull the belt as tight as possible for take-off and landing)
    Tables are folded now but they're still hard plastic and smaller children can still slam against them especially since seats are now closer together.

  15. #155
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    Animation of the crash: http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2013/07/...ays-sfo-crash/

    The blue ghost plane is a normally landing plane.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  16. #156

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    That's ^^^ really interesting. Looks like the pilot tried to manually pull-up as it approached the landing strip, but pulled up too late.

    O-

  17. #157
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    Yes, they were trying to abort the landing within seconds of the tail striking the barrier.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  18. #158
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    Twitter:

    NewsHour ‏@NewsHour 2m
    RT @AP: BREAKING: Hospital official says a child died of injuries from Asiana crash, becoming third victim to die from the accident.
    Jon Passantino ‏@passantino 17m
    RT @gerryshih: Just in: Chinese consulate says third #Asiana214 girl who died was Chinese national
    Jim Roberts ‏@nycjim 5m
    3rd victim of Asiana air crash was also teenage girl from China who was coming to US for summer camp. http://reut.rs/15p1nsW


    EDIT:

    Amanda Watts ‏@CNNAmanda 27s
    Runway 28L at San Francisco International Airport has re-opened after Saturday’s Asiana Airlines flight 214 crash, according to SFO Airport.
    Last edited by dardar1126; 07-13-2013 at 04:04 AM.

  19. #159
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    Quite the snafu on KTVU (Bay Area Fox affiliate):
    http://youtu.be/L1JYHNX8pdo

    Apology:
    http://www.ktvu.com/videos/news/ktvu...-flight/v6TFh/

    Notes:
    1) The pilots' names have been public knowledge almost since the crash happened
    2) KTVU is (relatively speaking) the highest-quality newscast in the Bay Area; they should know better

  20. #160
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    Oh no they didn't.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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