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  1. #1
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    Could Sumners realistically beat Witt in 84?

    Looking back at Ros Sumners career it seemed she was touted as the one to beat East Germanys Kat Witt. True she did win 83 worlds (was behind Witt, Leistner and Vodorezova in the SP) 3 time US national champ. Looking back at her 83 worlds worlds performances (and even her 84 nats performance which had more attack despite the slip up on one of her double axels) there seemed to be such a stark contrast to one year later in Sarajevo. She looked unsure of herself and tentative at the 84 Olympics except in the figures portion. So considering how great a competitor Witt was ( winning silver at 82 worlds and taking into account if she nailed figures in Sarajevo unlike 83 worlds), and Sumners decline; was it realistic to expect her to win gold?

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    It was obviously realistic for her to have won in Sarajevo since she popped two triple toes into doubles, two double axels into singles, 3 of the 4 were ugly wide open pops which were literal and visible mistakes, not just dropped content, and finished off her music, and still was .1 from winning. I do think in retrospect it is clear she peaked in 83 and she was already on decline in 84, and so she was never going to give a faultless competition in Sarajevo with all she had planned realistically; but for sure it was possible for her to have won, especialy the way the judges generously scored her free program in Sarajevo.

    Had she just done 1 of her last 2 jumps she would have won, so she just needed to focus a bit more and not get ahead of herself which I think is what happened. Had she traded the last 45 seconds of her flawed Nationals performance which still finished with a bang with the last 45 seconds of her Olympic performance that would easily have done it.

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    In the final run-through the night before the LP final, Roz skated her program perfectly. That was mentioned in the ABC fluff piece, and Roz herself said she did a perfect run-through the night prior to the LP. So in no way was Roz on the decline in 84. I agree that Roz could've won if she ended her program strongly with a split-3toe and a final 2A like she did at Nationals 1-2 months prior. Who knew what was going on her head on the night of the LP, but she blew it.

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    The real question is where Sumners would have placed in 2010.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    The real question is where Sumners would have placed in 2010.
    With her 84 Olympic programs in 2010? She wouldnt have even made it out of Sectionals in the U.S.

    Representing Moldova or wherever she apparently got last minute citizenship to be in Vancouver, then probably about 22nd place. 2 triple toes and a bunch of opened up double axels belonged in another era. Wasnt even good technically for that era, which is why she lost that night.

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    Hmmm ... never realized Vodorezova had a Biellmann spin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    In the final run-through the night before the LP final, Roz skated her program perfectly. That was mentioned in the ABC fluff piece, and Roz herself said she did a perfect run-through the night prior to the LP. So in no way was Roz on the decline in 84. I agree that Roz could've won if she ended her program strongly with a split-3toe and a final 2A like she did at Nationals 1-2 months prior. Who knew what was going on her head on the night of the LP, but she blew it.
    I always loved her show skating. But there was definitely a "thing" going on with her. Like a point she had to prove. She must have just caved at the OLYS. She had all the talent and all the technique.

    The mind is a curious thing.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  8. #8
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    Did Sumners deserve 5th in the short program?

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    Witt was not an established champion outside of Europe at that point. I think Sumner and even Ivanova could have won.

    However, all three of them were outskated by Zayak in the SP and Freeskate, and Zayak probably did not deserve 13th in figures.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-26-2013 at 07:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Did Sumners deserve 5th in the short program?
    Yes, absolutely.

    And she deserved 4th or 5th in the long as well.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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    In the commentary Button was all "she elected to do doubles" I don't think it was a choice! Lol. But was he being sarcastic? Why would he have some maybe believing it was a choice which would backfire?

    Maybe it is just true she lost herself! Got ahead of the jumps! It's true she almost won anyway so she was totally capable of beating Witt.

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    Yes, if she had skated to win, rather than not to lose.

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    The thing about Witt is that although she won 2 Olympics, she was entirely beatable in both. Sumners could have beat her in '84, Thomas or Manley in '88. She didn't give an unbeatable performance in either Olympics, just no one else stepped up to the plate. It's not like Hamill or Kim's Olympic wins where you knew no one could likely do anything to beat them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Yes, absolutely.

    And she deserved 4th or 5th in the long as well.
    I dont see how she ever could have been any lower than 4th in the long. Nobody besides Witt, Sumners, or Chin could have been placed over her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I dont see how she ever could have been any lower than 4th in the long. Nobody besides Witt, Sumners, or Chin could have been placed over her.
    I was going to say I'd have placed Zayak over her, but I'm assuming that you mean Zayak instead of Sumners up above since we're talking about who could place above Sumners? Zayak really should have beaten Sumners in the SP as well.

    It would be a stretch, but I thought Anna Kondrashova had a decent skate in the free, so that's one more possibility. I think that fourth in the free is probably right though...if I were a judge, I probably would have put Chin first in the free and Zayak second in the free, then Witt and Sumners. Even so, the only change to the podium as a result of this would be Chin over Ivanova for bronze. Chin and Zayak were just too far back after figures to challenge at all...clearly the USFSA must have put all of their politicking behind Sumners in figures that year and had none left over for Chin or Zayak.

    The figures results that the three American ladies had over time show a pretty clear pattern of who is getting support and who is not. Zayak went from 22nd in figures at 1980 Worlds to 7th in 81, 4th in 82, ?? in 83 (I think she skated them before she withdrew), and then 13th at the 84 Olympics, and 9th at 84 Worlds. Meanwhile, Sumners goes from 11th in 82 to 1st in 83 and 84 and Chin's 12th in 84 all of a sudden improves to 2nd in 85 and then drops to 4th in 86 after losing ground to Debi Thomas. Sure makes me glad figures are gone.

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    Yes I meant Zayak of course. Kondrashova landed only 2 triples in the free (granted so did Sumners), fell, and even wobbled on her spread eagles, so I wouldnt see her above Sumners in the free program.

    I laughed when I saw Chin's interview recently and she said it was funny to her she was 2nd in figures in 1985 and 12th in 1984 and she didnt actually feel she had improved in figures at all. Makes you wonder what kind of things really went on in the figures.

    I remember seeing some footage of the figures from Sarajevo and when Witt ended up 3rd Rosalynn looked super peeved. I think she had bet on an insurmountable lead on all her real threats to cruise to the gold like the 83 Worlds, but suddenly she knew right then she would have to beat Witt in atleast one of the short or free programs to win the gold, and you could tell she was already very scared.

  17. #17
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    Zayak seemed to lose all ground after the problems at 83 worlds. I do think she could have challenged at the Olympics if she had better results at those worlds. Witt had improved (or at least it seemed she got better placements) at figures in 84, and that along with Sumners shaky confidence sealed the deal. Witt herself had also improved in her jump consistencies. At the 82 worlds she made numerous landing errors, but was pretty clean at the 83, 84 worlds and at Sarajevo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    Witt had improved (or at least it seemed she got better placements) at figures in 84 ...
    Witt went from 9th in figures at 1982 Worlds with Zayak present to 8th in figures at 1983 Worlds without Zayak present to 3rd in figures at the 1984 Olympics. Zayak went from 4th in figures at 1982 Worlds to 13th in figures behind Tiffany Chin at the 1984 Olympics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Witt went from 9th in figures at 1982 Worlds with Zayak present to 8th in figures at 1983 Worlds without Zayak present to 3rd in figures at the 1984 Olympics. Zayak went from 4th in figures at 1982 Worlds to 13th in figures behind Tiffany Chin at the 1984 Olympics.
    and Chin herself went from 12th in figures in Sarajevo to 2nd in figures at the 85 Worlds ahead of Witt (who was 3rd in figures at both events). Her own interview with Jenny Kirk she said she didnt even feel her figures had improved any.

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    I love it when skaters are honest about things like that, especially when they've benefitted from discrepancies like that.

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