View Poll Results: Which women could realisticalness wise have done enough in long to win 1982 Worlds

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  • Cotrill (beat Witt in long)

    8 24.24%
  • Thompson (beat Zayak in long)

    14 42.42%
  • Witt (beat Zayak in long)

    27 81.82%
  • Kristofics Binder (beat Leisnter in long)

    18 54.55%
  • Wegelius (beat Binder in long)

    6 18.18%
  • Vodorezova (beat Leistner in long)

    17 51.52%
  • none of them could have

    6 18.18%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #41
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    Under then points were tallied over a competition so someone who was 1st in SP, 2nd in FP could still be behind someone who was 2nd in SP, 1st in FP in combined free skating, despite that the free was worth more value. I believe Fratianne who was 1st in SP, 2nd in FP had more cummulative points and won the combined free skating over Biellmann who was 2nd in SP, 1st in FP at the 1980 Olympics for instance.

    However at the 74 Worlds I believe Errath barely won the short over Hamill who skated cleanly also with the same jumps, and then Hamill won the FP by a substantial margin after Errath fell, and the FP is worth more, so in this case it would have been Hamill easily.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Then you have Sumners 11th in figures when she was 1st in figures the next year.
    I don't doubt there was some politiks involved in figures judging, but part of the explanation for Sumners improved figures placing is that the skaters who placed 1,3,4, and 8 in 82 figures did not compete at 83 Worlds. The skaters she passed (and their 82 & 83 figures placements) were
    Wegelius (Finland) - 2nd & 2nd
    Vodorezova (USSR) - 5th & 3rd
    Thompson (Canada) - 6th & 6th
    Stanek (Austria) - 7th & 10th
    Witt (East Germany) - 9th & 8th
    Dubravcic (Yugoslavia) - 10th & 10th
    (Yes, there was apparently a tie for 10th place in figures in 1983.)

    Under then points were tallied over a competition so someone who was 1st in SP, 2nd in FP could still be behind someone who was 2nd in SP, 1st in FP in combined free skating, despite that the free was worth more value.
    I do remember they used to sum individual judges' ordinals and that they changed to majority ordinals because of the way some judges were giving their own skaters' rivals obviously and unfairly low ordinals to improve their own skaters' chances. I was thinking that change was made after the 1980 Olympics, but I guess it was later.

    Edited to add:

    Did some hunting and this article says the change to factored placements by segment was indeed made for the 80-81 season.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.0_system
    Last edited by Susan M; 07-08-2013 at 03:25 AM.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by matti View Post
    Yeah, but the so called "small medals" were awarded though. Katarina Witt was the "World free skating champion" in 1982.
    You mean, she was short program champion, right? Elaine won the free skate in 1982.

    (Unless you're counting SP and FP. Then yes, Witt would be higher.)
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  4. #44
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    He meant short and free program cummulative winner by either the factored scoring system (1981 and beyond) or the cummulative points system (1980 and earlier). Those are what the free skating medals were based upon the figures era.

    Witt actually would have won that at every Worlds from 82-88, except for 86, and even in 1986 she won the free skate (82 and 83 she didnt win the free skate, but the free skate winner was 10th and 4th in the short). She also won every short program at Worlds or Olympics from the 81 Worlds until the 88 Olympics, minus the 86 Worlds when she had a mistake. Pretty amazing, even if the 87 Worlds and 88 Olympic short program wins were colassal gifts.

  5. #45
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    Not to mention the gift Witt got at the 88 worlds LP over Manley, although Manley screwed up in the SP.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    Not to mention the gift Witt got at the 88 worlds LP over Manley, although Manley screwed up in the SP.
    The problem at '88 Worlds is that no one really performed well - Thomas still botched many of her jumps; unlike their Olympic performances, Manley and Ito each had a couple of mistakes; Trenary fell on a 3flip attempt; Kadavy had a meltdown

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    The problem at '88 Worlds is that no one really performed well - Thomas still botched many of her jumps; unlike their Olympic performances, Manley and Ito each had a couple of mistakes; Trenary fell on a 3flip attempt; Kadavy had a meltdown
    I'd agree with this. For some reason I had gotten the impression from Manley's autobiography that she had won the FP, then when I saw the actual performances I was kind of surprised she had won it because she didn't skate very well and I probably would have given Witt the free. Now I realize that the judges actually were in agreement with me I should have known better than to trust anything out of that autobiography, especially re 88 Worlds...Manley also claimed that someone stopped her music leading up to her combination, but she was the one who stopped her program, claiming there was a timing issue with the music, which seems a bit suspicious to me. There's also a weird re-telling of the incident in auto-biography #2, where she claims that she is revealing the "big conspiracy" behind her music issue for the first time ever, even though it was actually in the first autobiography. I don't know if she just fried her brain with so many drugs that she forgot it was in the first one or if she was dumb enough to think that since the first autobiography was more aimed at young adults, the same people wouldn't have read both books or what her issue was, but it was bizarre the way she told it in the second book. But in both books, she made it seem like she would have won the world title if it weren't for politics in the figures and/or the music issue that threw her off her game in the SP, hence my assumption that she had won the free. I'm kind of glad she didn't because that just invalidates her claim even further.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I don't know if she just fried her brain with so many drugs that she forgot it was in the first one or if she was dumb enough to think that since the first autobiography was more aimed at young adults, the same people wouldn't have read both books or what her issue was, but it was bizarre the way she told it in the second book.
    After Calgary, Liz Manley developed a huge cocaine-dependence problem. I would not be at all surprised if she had indeed fried her brain out.

    I never liked Liz Manley's public-relations front as "Canada's Sweetheart" when in reality she was a chronically depressed, drug addicted, eating disorder riddled woman and her performances were always so fake and "cheesy" or "sweet".

    Meh. On tour she would snort over $200.00/day of cocaine, and always wanted more and MORE and MORE. Fried brain for sure.

  9. #49
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    He meant short and free program cummulative winner by either the factored scoring system (1981 and beyond) or the cummulative points system (1980 and earlier). Those are what the free skating medals were based upon the figures era.
    Don't they still give the small medals, only now it's for the 1-2-3 finishers in the freeskate/freedance? Is there also one for the SP/SD winners?

  10. #50
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    All the "small medalists" deserve recognition!

    World figure skating medalists (Ladies)

    1969 Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Beatrix Schuba, Austria (gold)
    Gabriele Seyfert, DDR (silver)
    Zsuzsa Almassy, Hungary (bronze)

    1970 Ljubljana, Yugoslavia
    Beatrix Schuba, Austria (gold)
    Gabriele Seyfert, DDR (silver)
    Julie Lynn Holmes, USA (bronze)

    1971 Lyon, France
    Beatrix Schuba, Austria (gold)
    Julie Lynn Holmes, USA (silver)
    Rita Trapanese, Italy (bronze)

    1972 Calgary, Canada
    Beatrix Schuba, Austria (gold)
    Karen Magnussen, Canada (silver)
    Janet Lynn, USA (bronze)

    1973 Bratislava, Czechoslovakia
    Karen Magnussen, Canada (gold)
    Janet Lynn, USA (silver)
    Karin Iten, Switzerland (bronze)

    1974 Munich, West Germany
    Karin Iten, Switzerland (gold)
    Christine Errath, DDR (silver)
    Maria McLean, UK (bronze)

    1975 Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Dianne de Leeuw, the Netherlands (gold)
    Karin Iten, Switzerland (silver)
    Isabel de Navarre, West Germany (bronze)

    1976 Gothenburg, Sweden
    Isabel de Navarre, West Germany (gold)
    Dorothy Hamill, USA (silver)
    Dianne de Leeuw, the Netherlands (bronze)

    1977 Tokyo, Japan
    Anett P÷tzsch, DDR (gold)
    Dagmar Lurz, West Germany (silver)
    Susanna Driano, Italy (bronze)

    1978 Ottawa, Canada
    Anett P÷tzsch, DDR (gold)
    Dagmar Lurz, West Germany (silver)
    Linda Fratianne, USA (bronze)

    1979 Vienna, Austria
    Anett P÷tzsch, DDR (gold)
    Dagmar Lurz, West Germany (silver)
    Linda Fratianne, USA (bronze)

    1980 Dortmund, West Germany
    Anett P÷tzsch, DDR (gold)
    Dagmar Lurz, West Germany (silver)
    Claudia Kristofics-Binder, Austria (bronze)

    1981 Hartford, Connecticut, USA
    Claudia Kristofics-Binder, Austria (gold)
    Deborah Cottrill, UK (silver)
    Kristiina Wegelius, Finland (bronze)

    1982 Copenhagen, Denmark
    Claudia Kristofics-Binder, Austria (gold)
    Kristiina Wegelius, Finland (silver)
    Deborah Cottrill, UK (bronze)

    1983 Helsinki, Finland
    Rosalynn Sumners, USA (gold)
    Kristiina Wegelius, Finland (silver)
    Elena Vodorezova, USSR (bronze)

    1984 Ottawa, Canada
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Kira Ivanova, USSR (silver)
    Manuela Ruben, West Germany (bronze)

    1985 Tokyo, Japan
    Kira Ivanova, USSR (gold)
    Tiffany Chin, USA (silver)
    Katarina Witt, DDR (bronze)

    1986 Geneva, Switzerland
    Kira Ivanova, USSR (gold)
    Debi Thomas, USA (silver)
    Katarina Witt, DDR (bronze)

    1987 Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Kira Ivanova, USSR (gold)
    Debi Thomas, USA (silver)
    Claudia Leistner, West Germany (bronze)

    1988 Budapest, Hungary
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Elizabeth Manley, Canada (silver)
    Debi Thomas, USA (bronze)

    1989 Paris, France
    Claudia Leistner, West Germany (gold)
    Jill Trenary, USA (silver)
    Natalia Lebedeva, USSR (bronze)

    1990 Halifax, Canada
    Jill Trenary, USA (gold)
    Natalia Lebedeva, USSR (silver)
    Patricia Neske, West Germany (bronze)

    Let's hope the results tabulations on Wikipedia are correct...
    Last edited by matti; 07-14-2013 at 01:31 PM.

  11. #51
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    This is a funny thread. I didnt know those skaters needed only those placements to win. Can anyone show me the match as I dont really understand the factored scoring in the figures era well. I guess it makes sense as Zayak was only 7th in the short, that some could win with less.

    It is funny to see then Witt being the only one with alot of votes. I could see how people think Witt is the only one who could beat Zayak in the long. However if people like Vodorezova, Kristofics Binder, and Wegelius really only needed 3rd or 4th in the long to win couldnt they have atleast managed that. The level of skating that night outside Zayak and to some degree Witt really sucked, so were those skaters so weak they couldnt have even managed with a hypothetical good skate 3rd or 4th in the long to win the title over Zayak overall?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    No one - Elaine was queen
    I love Elaine, and she is one of my favorite to look back at old vids of, but her being the queen doesnt matter if only 2 of the 6 on the poll needed to beat her in the long program to win. Witt is 1 of those 2 and she has more votes than the others by far. I can easily see Thomson not being able to beat Elaine in the long, or Cotrill (who I only saw a few clips of and while she could do alot of triples overall doesnt impress me) able to beat even a flawed Witt.

    The rest I am not that familiar of, but were Vodorezeva, Wegelius, and Binder so weak that none of them could have placed 3rd or 4th in the long which is all they needed to win the gold over Zayak overall even with a good skate, when the event was so poorly skated mostly. Was Leistner's 3rd placed long really strong, and is that why none of these could manage that. The part I found on youtube only showed the last minute. Does anyone else have more info to share on these skaters.

  13. #53
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    Well I do think Vodorezeva could have done it in the LP. Remember she won the Bronze at the 83 worlds over Witt (of course that was largely because of Witts problems in figures as Witt beat Vodorezeva in the SP and FP). Wegelius was definitely very weak (but very strong in figures) as she proved at both the 82 and 83 worlds. So that leaves Binder, although I wasn't too impressed with what I've seen of her skating, she came very close to beating Leistner in the LP.

  14. #54
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    Didnt Binder miss beating Leistner in the LP by only 2 judges, and thus missing the World title by that margin. Had she not crashed on that last triple toe she would have done it for sure. I remember Leistner landed alot more jumps than Binder, which is what swayed the judges to put her above in the long, even though Binder was much stronger artistically.

    Wegelius would have needed the skate of her life to be 4th over Binder in the LP even with Binder's mistakes. She would have needed a perfect triple salchow and everything else perfect.

    Vodorezova might have been able to take 3rd in the LP to win the gold with her Europeans LP which wasnt too bad IIRC.

    Thomson with only a triple lutz and triple flip as her only 2 triples probably had no chance to beat Zayak in the LP. At the 83 Worlds she skated a clean LP with both triple lutz and triple flip landed and got only 5.2s and 5.3s for marks. The judges unfortunately saw her as a nobody, and that is pretty much how they always saw her despite her doing the most diffcult triple jumps of anyone in the World, having the best spins in the World, and having outstanding choreography and musicality.

    Cottril probably couldnt have beaten Witt in the LP even skating perfectly with her array of really hard jumps and all Witt's mistakes. Judges hated her skating and always marked her low, similar to Thomson. By the time Witt skated the judges would know that if Cottril was 2nd in the LP she might win, so they probably would have made sure that didnt happen given that they didnt like her to begin with.

  15. #55
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    Yes and Leistners skating wasn't anything that great but she had more difficulty than Binder.

    Thompson had the flip but so did Witt, and IMO Witt was the better overall skater, but I agree she was a much better spinner.

  16. #56
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    Thomson had both a lutz and flip though, and Witt missed her triple flip, and Zayak never had a lutz or flip. I am not saying Thomson with only a triple lutz and triple flip neccessarily even should have won over Zayak with 6 triples though, even had she skated cleanly. Just in general IMO she had enough strong qualities she deserved more marks than she often got, but even if she skated great she wouldnt have gotten very high marks, probably not even enough to medal. I just dont think the judges thought of her as a top skater ever. Her SP marks at the 82 Worlds were much too low, as well as her LP marks at the 83 Worlds, and many other instances.

    In the short program in 83 and 84 for instance she was doing a triple lutz combo and landed it cleanly at Canadians. IMO had she ever done that short program at Worlds or Olympics, given that the other women were doing triple toe combos, and that her spins were better than any of the top women, she would deserve 1st place in the short program for sure, but I highly doubt she would have been given anything near that even if she had. OK I know I am guessing at something that never happened but just in general I dont think she ever did or ever would get the scores she deserved.

    I am actually shocked 3 out 8 voting that Thomson could have won the gold at the 82 Worlds with a clean LP. Those people must not have followed skating and how she was typically scored much to believe that. As the OP pointed out, the U.S broacast with Dick and Peggy even awarded Zayak the gold medal immediately when Wegelius and her marks and final results were in, as they were so certain Thomson had no hope of winning; and didnt even bother showing her performance, just skipped to preparing for the medal ceremony.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 07-14-2013 at 04:01 AM.

  17. #57
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    World free skating medalists (Ladies)

    1969 Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Gabriele Seyfert, DDR (gold)
    Julie Lynn Holmes, USA (silver)
    Linda Carbonetto, Canada (bronze)

    1970 Ljubljana, Yugoslavia
    Gabriele Seyfert, DDR (gold)
    Janet Lynn, USA (silver)
    Karen Magnussen, Canada (bronze)

    1971 Lyon, France
    Janet Lynn, USA (gold)
    Karen Magnussen, Canada (silver)
    Sonja Morgenstern, DDR (bronze)

    1972 Calgary, Canada
    Janet Lynn, USA (gold)
    Karen Magnussen, Canada (silver)
    Sonja Morgenstern, DDR (bronze)

    1973 Bratislava, Czechoslovakia
    Karen Magnussen, Canada (gold)
    Janet Lynn or Christine Errath or Dorothy Hamill or Lynn Nightingale (silver, bronze)

    1974 Munich, West Germany
    Dorothy Hamill, USA (gold)
    Christine Errath, DDR (silver)
    Gerti Schanderl, West Germany (bronze)

    1975 Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Dianne de Leeuw, the Netherlands (gold)
    Dorothy Hamill or Christine Errath (silver, bronze)

    1976 Gothenburg, Sweden
    Dorothy Hamill, USA (gold)
    Christine Errath, DDR (silver)
    Dianne de Leeuw or Linda Fratianne (bronze)

    1977 Tokyo, Japan
    Linda Fratianne, USA (gold)
    Anett P÷tzsch or Wendy Burge or Elena Vodorezova (silver, bronze)

    1978 Ottawa, Canada
    Linda Fratianne, USA (gold)
    Anett P÷tzsch or Denise Biellmann (silver, bronze)

    1979 Vienna, Austria
    Linda Fratianne, USA (gold)
    Denise Biellmann, Switzerland (silver)
    Anett P÷tzsch, DDR (bronze)

    1980 Dortmund, West Germany
    Linda Fratianne, USA (gold)
    Emi Watanabe, Japan (silver)
    Denise Biellmann, Switzerland (bronze)

    1981 Hartford, Connecticut, USA
    Denise Biellmann, Switzerland (gold)
    Elaine Zayak, USA (silver)
    Katarina Witt, DDR (bronze)

    1982 Copenhagen, Denmark
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Claudia Leistner, West Germany (silver)
    Elaine Zayak, USA (bronze)

    1983 Helsinki, Finland
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Rosalynn Sumners, USA (silver)
    Claudia Leistner, West Germany (bronze)

    1984 Ottawa, Canada
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Anna Kondrashova, USSR (silver)
    Elaine Zayak (bronze)

    1985 Tokyo, Japan
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Kira Ivanova, USSR (silver)
    Tiffany Chin, USA (bronze)

    1986 Geneva, Switzerland
    Debi Thomas, USA (gold)
    Katarina Witt, DDR (silver)
    Tiffany Chin, USA (bronze)

    1987 Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Debi Thomas, USA (silver)
    Caryn Kadavy, USA (bronze)

    1988 Budapest, Hungary
    Katarina Witt, DDR (gold)
    Elizabeth Manley, Canada (silver)
    Midori Ito, Japan (bronze)

    1989 Paris, France
    Midori Ito, Japan (gold)
    Claudia Leistner, West Germany (silver)
    Jill Trenary, USA (bronze)

    1990 Halifax, Canada
    Midori Ito, Japan (gold)
    Kristi Yamaguchi, USA (silver)
    Jill Trenary, USA (bronze)

  18. #58
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    Number of world gold medals awarded by ISU ("big and small", overall competition, figures and free skating) 1969-1990

    1. Katarina Witt 12
    2. Beatrix Schuba, Anett P÷tzsch and Linda Fratianne 6
    5. Gabriele Seyfert 4
    6. Karen Magnussen, Dorothy Hamill, Kira Ivanova and Midori Ito 3

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