View Poll Results: Which women could realisticalness wise have done enough in long to win 1982 Worlds

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  • Cotrill (beat Witt in long)

    8 24.24%
  • Thompson (beat Zayak in long)

    14 42.42%
  • Witt (beat Zayak in long)

    27 81.82%
  • Kristofics Binder (beat Leisnter in long)

    18 54.55%
  • Wegelius (beat Binder in long)

    6 18.18%
  • Vodorezova (beat Leistner in long)

    17 51.52%
  • none of them could have

    6 18.18%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Was Sandra Bezic not good enough for her?
    I guess not. She maybe couldn't be helped.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    No one - Elaine was queen
    She was Zueen! lol.

    It was so interesting to see that the U.S. was so willing to let her go and rally around Sumners. Everything did have to align just right for her to win that year, but she DID win.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrellH View Post
    She was Zueen! lol.

    It was so interesting to see that the U.S. was so willing to let her go and rally around Sumners. Everything did have to align just right for her to win that year, but she DID win.
    Thus my respect for her - she medalled at every Worlds she competed in the 81 - 84 quadrennial, including winning '82 Worlds, without any real support from the USFSA and a deformed foot. Also, she pushed the envelope in jumping and actually has a rule named after her which is used to this day. Ironically, she has more of a legacy in the sport (IMO) than her peers at the time, Sumners and Chin.

  4. #24
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    Chin wasnt around long enough to garner any sort of legacy, other than yet another cautionary note for crazy skating moms and falling stars falling down to earth fast, but pretty much everyone who remembers her skating in 84 adores her and thinks she was probably the best free skater in the World that year. Sadly that was the only year she would ever be at that level, either before or after.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Thus my respect for her - she medalled at every Worlds she competed in the 81 - 84 quadrennial, including winning '82 Worlds, without any real support from the USFSA and a deformed foot. Also, she pushed the envelope in jumping and actually has a rule named after her which is used to this day. Ironically, she has more of a legacy in the sport (IMO) than her peers at the time, Sumners and Chin.
    I remember watching 84 Worlds, and hearing the announcers talking about how much she was needed to place well. She was needed to assure spots for the next year. Sumners and Chin did not go that year.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrellH View Post
    I remember watching 84 Worlds, and hearing the announcers talking about how much she was needed to place well. She was needed to assure spots for the next year. Sumners and Chin did not go that year.
    And what a final great performance she gave at 84 worlds.

  7. #27
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    If the poll starter is accurate in the long program placings needed to win overall than Witt, Vodorezova, Kristofics Binder obviously had a chance to win the gold over Zayak overall. I cant believe Vodorezova even past her prime, and Kristofics Binders werent atleast capable of beating Leistner in the long unless Leistner skated a blinder that day.

    Cotrill had a triple lutz and 4 different types of triples then. Wouldnt the judges have had to atleast place her over Witt in the long program with Witt's mistakes that day then, which according to poll starter would win her gold overall?

    Thomson no way. Not a big enough name, and only 2 triples even if the hardest two. In the short she was screwed in the marks so that already shows the judges would have never given her such marks to win the long program even if she landed both triple lutz and triple flip.

    Wegelius sucks so I doubt she could have done a performance to beat Binder in the long to win gold over Zayak overall, unless Binder did a really bad long, but if she was 4th she probably was decent that night.

  8. #28
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    Cotrill was very inconsistent.
    It was very close between Binder and Leistner. Leistner and Sumners actually did poorly in figures but outskated Thompson, Wegelius, Cotrill and Vodorezova in the free program.

  9. #29
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    One of the more interesting perspectives is that Kristofics-Binder in retrospect only needed to finish 6th in the SP to win gold, and she only placed 9th in the segment - it must have been quite the silly error considering that the required combination needed a double flip, so most of the ladies did double flip-double toe and double-flip double loop (Witt and Zayak attempted double flip-triple toe, Witt successful, Zayak not successful).

  10. #30
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    Kristofics Binder had been clean in the short at the 81 Worlds and placed something like 6th in the short while Zayak with a fall and Biellmann with a double-double combo had been 2nd and 3rd, so who knows if she even make a mistake to place that low. Perhaps not. I always wondered how the shorts were skated at the 81 and 82 Worlds other than the few I heard about or saw since many of the placings are WTF. One that is funny is Vodorezova botching her planned double flip-double toe combo, doing a double flip-single toe and still being 3rd in the short while Zayak falling on her much harder triple toe combo is way down in 10th. Yet in the long program Vodorezova seems very harshly marked compared to some of the others and what they did, making it even more perplexing. Then you have Sumners 11th in figures when she was 1st in figures the next year.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Then you have Sumners 11th in figures when she was 1st in figures the next year.
    It's easy to say that figures judging was a joke, but I think, more often than not, it was on the up and up.

    My guess is that Roz worked her ass off on figures and skated better the next year. Midori Ito botched a figure in 1990 and it put her in 10th, costing her the world title. Caryn Kadavy talks about how she was 4th after the first figure in Calgary, but that her second figure was a lot weaker and she ended up in 7th. Tara Lipinski was scored 11th in the '96 Worlds free skate and 1st the next year.

    As someone who competed figures, I can safely say that you can be great at one competition and totally botch the next one. They take so much more steadiness and control than free skating and if you're nervous at all, you're screwed.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  12. #32
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    Still the 1981-1984 quad is the most fascinating in the history of ladies skating IMO. Just that someone would start a thread and poll like this sums it up, what other Worlds would anyone make a poll like this for. The skating and skaters were unpredictable and varying in their strengths and consistency, many skaters unexpectedly retired or emerged mid or late quad, and the judging was often as erratic as the women skaters themselves. The standings for the 1982 Worlds dont look like a competition but more like a lotto board:

    Ladies[edit]
    Rank Name Nation CP SP FS SP+FS Points Total
    1 Elaine Zayak United States 4 10 1 3 7.4
    2 Katarina Witt East Germany 9 1 2 1 7.8
    3 Claudia Kristofics-Binder Austria 1 9 4 5 8.2
    4 Claudia Leistner West Germany 14 2 3 2 12.2
    5 Elena Vodorezova Soviet Union 5 3 8 7 12.2
    6 Rosalynn Sumners United States 11 4 5 4 13.2
    7 Vikki de Vries United States 8 7 6 6 13.6
    8 Kay Thomson Canada 6 6 9 9 15.0
    9 Kristiina Wegelius Finland 2 5 12 10 15.2
    10 Deborah Cottrill United Kingdom 3 8 17 13 22.0
    11 Carola Paul East Germany 13 12 10 11 22.6
    12 Janina Wirth East Germany 12 13 11 12 23.4
    13 Elizabeth Manley Canada 23 11 7 8 25.2
    14 Sanda Dubravčić Yugoslavia 10 14 19 18 30.6
    15 Manuela Ruben West Germany 18 19 13 14 31.4
    16 Sandra Cariboni Switzerland 15 20 16 17 33.0
    17 Karen Wood United Kingdom 22 18 14 15 34.4
    18 Sonja Stanek Austria 7 15 25 21 35.2



    It is possible Sumners really did improve that much in figures in a year. However a different example is someone mentioning on another thread that Zayak and her coaches knew her figures were worth about 7th place. When she was in favor, like at these Worlds and 1981, she was possibly even held up and put 4th or 3rd in figures. However when she was out of favor around Sarajevo she was now 13th in figures.

    Another example is Tiffany Chin who missed a medal in Sarajevo due to a low 12th place in figures despite finishing 2nd in the combined free skating (ahead of Sumners), but next year at Worlds with Sumners gone and now U.S #1 and big hope for gold was 2nd in figures. Witt who was 3rd in figures at both events had been 9 places above her in figures in Sarajevo and now was 1 place behind her. Chin said in an interview with Jenny Kirk recently that she found it funny since she actually felt her figures hadnt improved at all.

  13. #33
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    Ladies
    Rank Name Nation CP SP FS SP+FS Points Total
    1 Elaine Zayak United States 4 10 1 3 7.4
    The fourth numbers is this table (SP+FS) should be ignored. In 1982, results were based on
    CP*.6 + SP*.4 + FS.

    The SP+FS calculation was not added in again and is not really relevant to the "who could have won" conversation.
    Last edited by Susan M; 07-06-2013 at 03:16 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by usova94gold View Post
    Cotrill had a triple lutz and 4 different types of triples then. Wouldnt the judges have had to atleast place her over Witt in the long program with Witt's mistakes that day then, which according to poll starter would win her gold overall?
    I can't find video of Cottrill's 1982 FS, but here is her clean skate from 1981 Worlds:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG-eRWpboDg

    Her jump elements were 3S, 3Lp, 2A, 2F, 2F-2Lp, 3T, 2F-2T, 2A, 2L-2L, Split F-2T-HalfLp-2S.
    That put her 4th in the FS and 4th overall.

    I'm not sure what it would have taken in 82 for the judges to put her above Witt. Here is Witt's FS from 81, good for second:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLuhzIyma0
    Her jumps: 2Lz-3T, 2A, 3F, 2S, 2Lp, 2A, 3T, 2S, SplitF-3T
    (I want to add the caveat that I find it really hard to count rotations with fuzzy old Youtube video.)

    To me, Witt's skating is in a whole other class. She gets so much more run from her blade and the program as a whole felt much more balanced and complete. I think it entirely possible the judges would place a clean Cottrill behind Witt and a few other top skaters even if they made errors.

  15. #35
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    In the 80-83 period Witt was low in figures, but performing very strong in the freeskating portions. What happened to Cottrill - she vanished from the picture around 82/83 like Wegalius and Binders.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    The fourth numbers is this table (SP+FS) should be ignored. In 1982, results were based on
    CP*.6 + SP*.4 + FS.

    The SP+FS calculation was not added in again and is not really relevant to the "who could have won" conversation.
    Yeah, but the so called "small medals" were awarded though. Katarina Witt was the "World free skating champion" in 1982. Likewise Kristofics-Binder, Wegelius and Cottrill were medallists in the compulsory figures competition that year.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by matti View Post
    Yeah, but the so called "small medals" were awarded though. Katarina Witt was the "World free skating champion" in 1982. Likewise Kristofics-Binder, Wegelius and Cottrill were medallists in the compulsory figures competition that year.
    Someone needs to create a Wikipedia page for "World free skating champions".
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  18. #38
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    Was anyone else planning 6 triples like Zayak?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Someone needs to create a Wikipedia page for "World free skating champions".
    Definitely!

    Ladies' "World figure skating Champions" 1969-1990

    1969 Beatrix Schuba
    1970 Beatrix Schuba
    1971 Beatrix Schuba
    1972 Beatrix Schuba
    1973 Karen Magnusen
    1974 Karin Iten
    1975 Dianne de Leeuw
    1976 Isabel de Navarre
    1977 Anett P÷tzsch
    1978 Anett P÷tzsch
    1979 Anett P÷tzsch
    1980 Anett P÷tzchh
    1981 Claudia Kristofics-Binder
    1982 Claudia Kristofics-Binder
    1983 Rosalynn Sumners
    1984 Katarina Witt
    1985 Kira Ivanova
    1986 Kira Ivanova
    1987 Kira Ivanova
    1988 Katarina Witt
    1989 Claudia Leistner
    1990 Jill Trenary

    Ladies' "World free skating Champions" 1969-1990

    1969 Gabriele Seyfert
    1970 Gabriele Seyfert
    1971 Janet Lynn
    1972 Janet Lynn
    1973 Karen Magnusen
    1974 Christine Errath/Dorothy Hamill (?)
    1975 Dianne de Leeuw
    1976 Dorothy Hamill
    1977 Linda Fratianne
    1978 Linda Fratianne
    1979 Linda Fratianne
    1980 Linda Fratianne
    1981 Denise Biellmann
    1982 Katarina Witt
    1983 Katarina Witt
    1984 Katarina Witt
    1985 Katarina Witt
    1986 Debi Thomas
    1987 Katarina Witt
    1988 Katarina Witt
    1989 Midori Ito
    1990 Midori Ito

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by matti View Post
    Definitely!


    Ladies' "World free skating Champions" 1969-1990

    1974 Christine Errath/Dorothy Hamill (?)
    It would have been Hamill since she won the freeskate. (First in FS, 2nd in SP beats second in FS, 1st in SP.)

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