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  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    Judges aren't supposed to be judging based on how the theme of a program makes them feel. It's also not American Idol where the audience reaction is taken into account. This is an Olympic sport. What the audience thinks or feels about a team's music or theme is, or should be, completely irrelevant to the scoring. The judges are supposed to be judging by a specific set of printed-in-black-and-white criteria that's supposed to evaluate the program based on technical difficulty and execution, skating skill, etc. Even the PCS mark is a technical mark, after all.

    I think it's important not to mix up the theme of a program with its choreography. Carmen was an unquestionably spectacular piece of choreography. There is no other tour de force like it in skating history. I understand that the theme may have made some people uncomfortable, but the theme of the program and how it made people feel was in no way supposed to enter into the marking. The theme is just a background for the technical skills that are supposed to be evaluated. CoP was created with the intention of removing the subjective "how a program makes someone feel" component from scoring skating programs.
    I completely agree with your post, aka_gerbil. That's what's frustrating to me. When I wrote my post, it was what I (just me) could make sense of what happened (well, others theories include politicking,rivalry, etc. from other posters.). Even so...it's quite evident there exists...to a degree...subjectivity on CoP. How else, can we explain the results: notable under component: cherography in http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/ and http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/?

    Please correct/enlightened me if I'm in the wrong...

    Nonetheless, I want Virtue/Moir team to perform kick-ass performances all season long and a repeat Olympics medal. Fair judging, Judges!

  2. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsianFSFan View Post
    I completely agree with your post, aka_gerbil. That's what's frustrating to me. When I wrote my post, it was what I (just me) could make sense of what happened (well, others theories include politicking,rivalry, etc. from other posters.). Even so...it's quite evident there exists...to a degree...subjectivity on CoP. How else, can we explain the results: notable under component: cherography in http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/ and http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/?

    Please correct/enlightened me if I'm in the wrong...

    Nonetheless, I want Virtue/Moir team to perform kick-ass performances all season long and a repeat Olympics medal. Fair judging, Judges!
    No you are not wrong.

  3. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    WOW, I don't think TAT could be compared with Sonya. How many OGM Sonya had?
    If no official ice dance judge has the number of OGMs Tarasova has, does it mean they are less qualified than Tarasova to judge ice dancing?

    TAT isn't good expert in figure skating? Or just because she disagree with judges she couldn't talk about this?
    I didn't say any of that, pani.

  4. #804

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    Interesting question about judges. A lot of them not only didn't skate on high level it didn't coach high level skaters, but even didn't skate at all. We have judges from some countries, where people never saw natural ice and snow. And this judges (for example) tell two time OGM Platov he didn't understand how pattern dance must be skated or didn't understand how to reach level 4 in steps and how to show outside blade. It's interesting

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    I loved this title when you suggested it earlier in the year, but I think we should save it for later like Emdee said-- around nats or the games. And what kind of lists are you trying to come up with? Like just random facts?
    Favourite programs/commentator's comments/pieces of music I wished they had skated to/lifts, etcs

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Favourite programs/commentator's comments/pieces of music I wished they had skated to/lifts, etcs
    Great idea - maybe this is something we can start on now and then Iggie can include in her blog. She already has a lot of comments etc.

  7. #807
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    CBC Olympics (@CBCOlympics)
    Take a look at Scott Moir's point of view of Tessa Virtue as our team shoots with them in this week! @SkateCanada http://t.co/yJzo3RdFAI
    (https://twitter.com/CBCOlympics/stat...09952093040640)

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    CBC Olympics (@CBCOlympics)
    Take a look at Scott Moir's point of view of Tessa Virtue as our team shoots with them in this week! @SkateCanada http://t.co/yJzo3RdFAI
    (https://twitter.com/CBCOlympics/stat...09952093040640)
    So adorable!

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    CBC Olympics (@CBCOlympics)
    Take a look at Scott Moir's point of view of Tessa Virtue as our team shoots with them in this week! @SkateCanada http://t.co/yJzo3RdFAI
    (https://twitter.com/CBCOlympics/stat...09952093040640)
    That photo reminds me of this fluff! http://youtu.be/nowGB90YdFo?t=1m10s

    Also re: what Tarasova said at 2012 worlds - I thought the petition was for Pchan only?? and if IIRC she only said she thought the "americans were better than the canadians" and then went back to talking aboug PCHan (if I'm wrong someone please refresh my memory). IIRC she didn't really specify why. To me it sounded very spur of the moment and TAT sounded angry. This time she sounds earnest and calm. What she said in 2012 gave me the impression that the USFSA paid her to say that but maybe it was just because of mistranslation. I will admit, I have a hard time understanding TAT

  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    CBC Olympics (@CBCOlympics)
    Take a look at Scott Moir's point of view of Tessa Virtue as our team shoots with them in this week! @SkateCanada http://t.co/yJzo3RdFAI
    (https://twitter.com/CBCOlympics/stat...09952093040640)
    Was Scott wearing some sort of headcam while doing the step sequence? Wouldn't it be cool if they both wear head cams while they skate their programs and do elements? We'll get to see both their visual perspective, although no cam for Scott if they do the Carmen rotational lift.

    Quote Originally Posted by AsianFSFan View Post
    With Carmen (specifically requested by judges themselves), They (judges) had high expectations for a spectacular choreography. They want the feel of explosive passion and tragedy, alright. Alas, when the piece showcased, Carmen was completely...opposite...of what they envisioned (in their minds).

    […] Honestly, it was...different...hard...and "uncomfortable". Full of symbolisms...and maybe (for some) it's in abstract (the horror!). Perhaps, that's why some focused on one dimension...in this case, sexual. Though, it isn't ...really.

    […] Back to Carmen, I don't blame them...they (judges) just want simple. Simple...relatable emotions of passion and/or tragedy in a "traditional" feel, like those of past Carmens...Just more extraordinary.

    First (and positive) impression is everything. Think how Mahler/Valse Triste/Umbrellas/etc...affected you emotionally...The same goes with the judges...
    They got spectacular choreography alright, but it was so outside the traditional Carmen some just can’t appreciate it. I don’t think Carmen is abstract or full of symbols (I think PF fits that description better). I think it is full of emotion, but dark emotions. I think it is not the opposite of “explosive passion and tragedy” but a very raw, very honest no-holds-barred exploration and portrayal of the darker and more destructive aspects of love. I can understand why that would be uncomfortable for some, even avoid it. Facing the darker side of one’s nature is not something many wants to do after all, and the fact that all the above is the polar opposite of the Epic love that is Mahler makes it all the more jarring for VM. But as aka_gerbil said, the theme of the choreography, whether it invokes a positive feeling ala Mahler or a negative, uncomfortable feeling like Carmen (for some) really should not factor in the technical scoring of the judges. I mean, it’s like watching a movie and judging how the actors performed. I wasn’t comfortable as I watched Natalie Portman’s character descend into insanity in Black Swan, but I can’t deny the great performance. Hannibal Lecter was not definitely inspiring positive emotions in me but one cannot deny that Sir Anthony Hopkins was brilliant in Silence of the Lambs. LOL! I hope that made sense. If not just go back to aka_gerbil’s post. It’s much clearer and concise. Welcome by the way to the VM thread here AsianFSFan!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    ... There's a reason why we get the warhorses we do, interpreted in similar ways, often with similar or the exact same music cuts, and the same type of costume, year after year after year. Anything that distracts from this or makes the judges uncomfortable is a big risk. For example, the way they used modern dance elements and shifted their weight differently than the typical upright figure skating choreography was brilliant (because man, what core strengh, edge stability, and balance do you need to pull that off), but it's not what the judges are used to and could've actually been a mark against them. And remember, just two seasons before, the ISU was asking for "uplifting."

    I am proud of them for taking that risk and I agree with aka_gerbil that they created an outstanding piece of choreography (both according to the CoP rulebook and my personal preference)…]
    Remember this little fluff before Skate Canada last season from CTV London where the reporter did some sort of beginners exercise with the bar over the shoulder to train for balance and the proper upright posture required of an ice dancer? Isn’t the goal of that exercise a direct opposite of what Tessa and Scott are doing in the modern dance sequenceinvolving these pictures? I think the quote I added beneath the photo set plus your post I bolded above basically summed up the difficulty incorporating modern dance movements in an ice dance program. It’s definitely not something for a team who “regressed” in technical skills. I know this is not the point of this current discussion but seriously, the argument last season that somehow VM regressed or stagnated technically was very vexing for me, to put it mildly. Thanks for sharing that quote though, haven’t seen that one. It’s nice that he can get past the “uncomfortable” and appreciate the strength of the choreography and skating skills necessary for that “unnatural positions in dance.”

  11. #811

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    CBC Olympics (@CBCOlympics)
    Take a look at Scott Moir's point of view of Tessa Virtue as our team shoots with them in this week! @SkateCanada http://t.co/yJzo3RdFAI
    (https://twitter.com/CBCOlympics/stat...09952093040640)
    Thanks! Cant wait to see this photo-shoot!
    And one week until High Performance Camp in Toronto

  12. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    CBC Olympics (@CBCOlympics)
    Take a look at Scott Moir's point of view of Tessa Virtue as our team shoots with them in this week! @SkateCanada http://t.co/yJzo3RdFAI
    (https://twitter.com/CBCOlympics/stat...09952093040640)
    Thank you! Tessa looks really adorable here!

    I think Tatiana Tarasova still is a very important person in the Figure Skating world, otherwise neither the Russian Figure Skating Federation nor the ISU or any Skater would seek her adivise. She has been in this buisness for some time now and knows how it works, Tarasova has seen skater come and go, has been around through the great moments and the scandals. You could say, she is the ultimate insider. If we like it or not, I think that her opinion still matters.

    Regarding Carmen, at some time point during the season, I had the feeling that the judges weren't ready for Carmen. That does not excuse the scoring since I believe that Carmen never received the score it should have. But sometimes the masterpieces are appreciated only after time passes, it is really fustrating for everyone who acknowledges its potential, in particular for the artists themselves. Carmen still is the most innovative, difficult and artistic Free Dance ever produced by any team and maybe that was the problem for many judges.

  13. #813

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    CBC Olympics (@CBCOlympics)
    Take a look at Scott Moir's point of view of Tessa Virtue as our team shoots with them in this week! @SkateCanada http://t.co/yJzo3RdFAI
    (https://twitter.com/CBCOlympics/stat...09952093040640)
    That really is cute.
    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Thanks! Cant wait to see this photo-shoot!
    And one week until High Performance Camp in Toronto
    Pani how do you know it's next week?
    "They’re everything in a team that we strive to be...they are to me the quintessential ice dance team of our time."~Kaitlyn Weaver

  14. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahararainfall View Post
    Remember this little fluff before Skate Canada last season from CTV London where the reporter did some sort of beginners exercise with the bar over the shoulder to train for balance and the proper upright posture required of an ice dancer? Isn’t the goal of that exercise a direct opposite of what Tessa and Scott are doing in the modern dance sequenceinvolving these pictures? I think the quote I added beneath the photo set plus your post I bolded above basically summed up the difficulty incorporating modern dance movements in an ice dance program. It’s definitely not something for a team who “regressed” in technical skills.
    That's a fantastic illustration of the skills the program took. Thank you.

    I know this is not the point of this current discussion but seriously, the argument last season that somehow VM regressed or stagnated technically was very vexing for me, to put it mildly.
    This. I can't even imagine the couple skating to Mahler doing this program. That was like a kindergarten performance compared to the difficulty of Mahler. How could you upgrade your difficulty that much if you had not "improved"? I also think they upgraded the power behind their skating a lot since 2010 (and it was already great then), which is especially evident in the Funny Face FD and the 2013 SD. Their yankee polka sequence had fantastic power. They continue to blow me away each season with new things, so yeah, I don't understand how people think they're regressing technically. They struggled with a few moves on the GP but that's normal. If you struggle on newer, much more difficult moves, you aren't regressing. They got everything the way it was supposed to be in the FD by Worlds. That's the way it's supposed to work, peak for Worlds.

  15. #815

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    That really is cute.

    Pani how do you know it's next week?
    I read this message on Page Lawrence Rudy Sweigers twitter account.

  16. #816

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    Bobrova-Soloviev will also compete at Finlandia Trophy.

  17. #817

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    Quote Originally Posted by marikat View Post
    Bobrova-Soloviev will also compete at Finlandia Trophy.
    Thanks! Hope CL will compete too. Can't wait

  18. #818

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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Thanks! Hope CL will compete too. Can't wait
    Is the entry list out? How do you guys know this? Sorry, I feel like I'm always asking questions that everybody already has the answers to lol.
    "They’re everything in a team that we strive to be...they are to me the quintessential ice dance team of our time."~Kaitlyn Weaver

  19. #819
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._rb7iRc#t=3832
    Buttle was asked by TSL what he thinks about Tessa and Scott

    Tessa Virtue - Perfection
    Scott Moir - Adorable

  20. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    That's a fantastic illustration of the skills the program took. Thank you.



    This. I can't even imagine the couple skating to Mahler doing this program. That was like a kindergarten performance compared to the difficulty of Mahler. How could you upgrade your difficulty that much if you had not "improved"? I also think they upgraded the power behind their skating a lot since 2010 (and it was already great then), which is especially evident in the Funny Face FD and the 2013 SD. Their yankee polka sequence had fantastic power. They continue to blow me away each season with new things, so yeah, I don't understand how people think they're regressing technically. They struggled with a few moves on the GP but that's normal. If you struggle on newer, much more difficult moves, you aren't regressing. They got everything the way it was supposed to be in the FD by Worlds. That's the way it's supposed to work, peak for Worlds.
    Exactly! Does doing the same elements every year equal improvement? Nope. I remember the criticism here about Mahler that people said Tessa was wooden and she doesn't show facial expression compared to lets say Meryl. But with FF http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1...vo1_r2_500.gif (and the tango SD and Carmen too! even though she struggled with it at the end) Tessa grew as a performer and I think getting that second surgery helped her too because she can focus on the performance and not the pain. Her performance in FF was multidimensional and made Meryl facial expressions seem cheesy and OTT and makes her seem like she always does the same facial expressions.
    Last edited by parapluies; 08-29-2013 at 05:10 PM.

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