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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Accordion, I share your concern when I saw that he looked so very tired after the skate. But then, VarBar has a point. He has only 35 days of training in Detroit assuming he returned there in July and also his training may be disrupted by the local competition held recently in Detroit. I also think he probably has to travel to Toronto to learn his new LP from Wilson so he probably won't be training that full 35 days.

    Although Colorado Spring's altitude training is good for him, again I see VarBar's logic that there are more ways of building one's stamina. I hope he trains well to build his stamina too because his lp is a very vigorous demanding program.

    Emdee attended the competition. According to her, she didn't think Patrick was rolling his eyes at Kathy. It was thought that Patrick looked 'angry with himself' rather than anyone else.
    I hope he is angry enough about himself to get technical help.

    I share The Accordian's viewpoint. I just have a very bad feeling about Patrick's Olympic possibilities. This feeling began the minute he fired Krall and the stamina issue was very apparent last season.

    Basically, I think Patrick is on the decline. I also think that - sadly - this may because of his coaching and training decisions.

  2. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corianna View Post
    I do remember that when Patrick came out, I remarked to my companion that he looked older. He did not appear to be thinner over all, but his face looked more angular as you say. However the lighting in the arena was deadly, really deadly, and drained colour from everyone, even those in the seats. (The lights also had the most annoying buzz. ) And no, I have not seen him so frustrated, tense - whatever it was, either. Nevertheless the programme is gorgeous, He was really flying - just flying- in the first section. And I was enormously cheered by the Globe and Mail video of the media scrum. He looked and sounded just fine, and it could only have been filmed a few moments after he left the ice. Overall, I would say that Patrick seemed absolutely determined to get down to serious business, and work like the devil to have a great season. I have faith.
    Thanks for these details and thoughts- they make sense and I appreciate you sharing Patrick's good state of mind in the press scrum as well. That is reassuring at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I hope he is angry enough about himself to get technical help.

    I share The Accordian's viewpoint. I just have a very bad feeling about Patrick's Olympic possibilities. This feeling began the minute he fired Krall and the stamina issue was very apparent last season.

    Basically, I think Patrick is on the decline. I also think that - sadly - this may because of his coaching and training decisions.
    I hope this is not the case - but if it is - I am thinking I wouldn't really blame him or anyone if he doesn't peak at the exact right time for the Olympics.

    Now I am not saying that won't happen - but if it doesn't - I can't find it surprising that it would be just that tough to be as good as he is for so long and for the exact right time in a 4 year cycle. I am just baffled by exactly what it takes to be able to be able to do what the top skaters do - the discipline - the amount of work physically, mentally, socially, and even having to eat the exact right foods all the time. No straying if you want to be among the top 5 % - let alone the man who can do what IMO only Patrick Chan has been able to do. I get the feeling from what I have read and what he has done - that it just wasn't enjoyable for him anymore with Krall - doing what he had to do under her guidance. I also remember reading that he was about to quit skating his last year with her - and the coaching change seems to be the other option.

    I think about Jeff Buttle - saying he never stayed up past 9pm on New Years while he was competing. And then he won Worlds and instead of staying in for an Olympics in his own country 2 years later - he turned professional. Now I know some may say that there was a good chance he wouldn't repeat as a medalist - but he said he just didn't have the fire anymore to train the way he needed to. It is even possible that Patrick experienced something like that but either he or those around him couldn't face the idea of not going to the Olympics. Just a possibility. I can't imagine being in any way unmotivated facing the kind of discipline and tough training necessary to be at the top of your game in this era and under IJS. No slacking.

    And then there is the question if he had not been injured at the beginning of the 2009/10 season what would have happened? I mean he was so systematic in his progress and without the injury would he have been able to skate the way he did a year later at the Olympics instead?

    Peaking for the season is complicated enough - let alone peaking at the exact time during the 4 year Olympic cycle.

    Ultimately I just hope that he is able to enjoy this season. I do think for him - that will mean skating well so I hope if he is happy with his current training situation that it will also work for him for what he wants to achieve.

    On a happy note - I remember him saying last year part of the reason for the change was he wanted to grow more as a performer - and with all the controversy over his falls and wins not everyone agrees with - I think we can miss how hard he has worked to do this.

  3. #143

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    On a happy note - I remember him saying last year part of the reason for the change was he wanted to grow more as a performer - and with all the controversy over his falls and wins not everyone agrees with - I think we can miss how hard he has worked to do this.
    I completely agree with this. IMO he's a much better performer than he was two or three seasons ago. That's especially apparent in his exhibition programs, which are beginning to approach Kurt Browning levels, but IMO it is apparent to some extent in all of his skating now.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    All this criticism for a new program's first outing?
    Let's watch it "mature", please: just as Patrick has!
    Conversely, wouldn’t it be better to make a suggestion/criticism this early if the suggestion/criticism were legitimate and constructive? One of the reasons for a skater to perform this early is to evaluate and modify a thing or two if necessary.

    Of course, the point I was making may not be germane, might already have been considered or is part of the plan. Furthermore, it is hardly realistic to believe that Wilson, Chan or his coach would stop by an internet forum to get a feedback after the first showing. So, what I say here probably is inconsequential right now.

    My apologies if my comments were unpleasant.

  5. #145
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    A quote from ESPN Olympics that Chan retweeted recently.

    “I hated every minute of training, but I said, 'Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion'.” - Muhammad Ali
    Could this quote be a description of Patrick's own current state of mind?

    Anyway:

    NBCOlympics ‏@NBCOlympics 12h
    #BehindtheScenes: We spent Sunday on the golf course with 3x world champion figure skater Patrick Chan:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BSjUaYTIcAA1vN2.jpg:large

    Quote Originally Posted by Corianna View Post
    I have to confess I kinda hope the costume won't be. I like him in the simple loose shirt ( it was the one he wore for the exhibition when what is now his short was his ex. I'm not so fond of the fussy and distracting.
    I don't remember Patrick wearing busy costumes that would distract from his skating. Maybe he or his costume designer doesn't believe in the concept that busy, flashy and flamboyant would help enhance the artistic impression.
    If I were into gambling games, I would bet on at least a new shirt for him for his Four Seasons program.

  6. #146
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    A whole bunch of skaters and other athletes re-tweeted that. My guess is they all feel that way sometimes. And you're right, Patrick's costumes are relatively restrained. I just prefer them even more restrained. My skating buddy and I have a game where we award a Mandatory two point bad costume deduction. It hasn't changed the podium yet, though.

    The Accordion, I loved your post.

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    Chan has never hidden the fact that had he won gold (or possibly any medal) in Vancouver he'd have been history. Figure skating is his job and he has devoted his young life to being the best that he can be - but he can't approach it like a Kurt Browning, who has kept his love for skating going for more than two decades. Patrick's goal is that elusive Olympic gold medal and the coaching/choreographer choices he makes are made as much to help keep his head in the game as they are to maintain and improve his skills. I can't imagine what an ordeal the last few years have been for him especially given the viciousness of the criticism directed at him. That's why I believe Patrick's the only one who knows what he needs and what is right for him.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    Chan has never hidden the fact that had he won gold (or possibly any medal) in Vancouver he'd have been history. Figure skating is his job and he has devoted his young life to being the best that he can be - but he can't approach it like a Kurt Browning, who has kept his love for skating going for more than two decades. Patrick's goal is that elusive Olympic gold medal and the coaching/choreographer choices he makes are made as much to help keep his head in the game as they are to maintain and improve his skills. I can't imagine what an ordeal the last few years have been for him especially given the viciousness of the criticism directed at him. That's why I believe Patrick's the only one who knows what he needs and what is right for him.
    Right on the dot, blueglass. That is exactly how I felt and see it. The manner in which he was 'viciously attacked and put down' is beyond comprehension. He was also being used to indirectly attack the current judging system. Reading the nasty posts on him, hypocrisy and vindictiveness are evident. It left a nasty taste in my mouth and a shock on how some of us can behave towards others we don't really know. I felt like he owes everyone a living never mind if he's an amateur athlete fully funded by his parents.

    Accordion, in relation to Buttle's move to professional skating, I GUESS this is more likely happened. I too have wondered how much sacrifice these elite athletes put in to reach where they are today. The sacrifices – time money (family’s support) physical endurance just for the medals? I can understand Buttle’s decision. He might have weighed the ‘sacrifices’ against obtaining the elusive OGM, and concluded that he just didn’t have motivation anymore to go through the demanding training to win OGM. And being a World gold medallist and Olympic bronze medallist, I am sure the pressure would have been even worse than before going into his second Olympic competition. I don’t think he has any regrets. Buttle has since catapulted as an upcoming choreographer relatively well known in a very short spate of time.

    Coming back to Patrick, his training regime as indicated in the documentary was very demanding. Whilst it did work, it may have taken the joy out of skating for him. And to find that joy again, he needed to find the balance perhaps a balance which I guess Krall did not agree so she quitted.

    Here’s a thread which someone posted on Gillian Carleton in relation to her depression and training: .http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...her-depression I think most elite athletes may be able to identify with her issues.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corianna View Post
    I just prefer them even more restrained. My skating buddy and I have a game where we award a Mandatory two point bad costume deduction. It hasn't changed the podium yet, though.
    He he, love that, Corianna. My skating buddies and I do the same thing. To be honest we have to award a lot of deductions.

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    I can't find it surprising that it would be just that tough to be as good as he is for so long and for the exact right time in a 4 year cycle. I am just baffled by exactly what it takes to be able to be able to do what the top skaters do - the discipline - the amount of work physically, mentally, socially, and even having to eat the exact right foods all the time. No straying if you want to be among the top 5 % - let alone the man who can do what IMO only Patrick Chan has been able to do. I get the feeling from what I have read and what he has done - that it just wasn't enjoyable for him anymore with Krall - doing what he had to do under her guidance. I also remember reading that he was about to quit skating his last year with her - and the coaching change seems to be the other option.

    I think about Jeff Buttle - saying he never stayed up past 9pm on New Years while he was competing. And then he won Worlds and instead of staying in for an Olympics in his own country 2 years later - he turned professional. Now I know some may say that there was a good chance he wouldn't repeat as a medalist - but he said he just didn't have the fire anymore to train the way he needed to. It is even possible that Patrick experienced something like that but either he or those around him couldn't face the idea of not going to the Olympics. Just a possibility. I can't imagine being in any way unmotivated facing the kind of discipline and tough training necessary to be at the top of your game in this era and under IJS. No slacking.
    What you are saying, basically, is that Patrick may have a motivation problem and lack competitive fire. That might in part explain what was going on with him last season.

    If working with Krall wasn't 'enjoyable', maybe he wasn't focused on results and she was - which could again be about a lack of motivation.

    Peaking for the season is complicated enough - let alone peaking at the exact time during the 4 year Olympic cycle
    Enough elite athletes have done it. It takes a single-minded focus and unbelievable drive. And Patrick hadn't peaked yet in 2010.

    Given the resources available to Patrick, and his ability to access and pay for them, there is no reason why he can't peak at the Olympics. Especially since he has no need to peak at Nationals.

    Of course, it's possible for an athlete to peak at the Olympics but still make mistakes that cost titles.

    But the stamina issue and consistent jump problems Patrick exhibited last season and in his last competition are really training issues.

    If he's just struggling to stay in the game because it is expected of him, it will be a tough season for both him and his fans.

    Ultimately I just hope that he is able to enjoy this season. I do think for him - that will mean skating well so I hope if he is happy with his current training situation that it will also work for him for what he wants to achieve.
    Can he enjoy it if he doesn't win the OGM, given the pressure that will be put on him? The Canadian media will milk his three world titles for all they are worth and then same. The Canadian media will tell us over and over and over again about the possibility of a first Gold medal in men's for Canada. If Patrick has a poor Grand Prix season, that might dampen the media's outlook to some point, but will also put more pressure on Patrick.

    On a happy note - I remember him saying last year part of the reason for the change was he wanted to grow more as a performer - and with all the controversy over his falls and wins not everyone agrees with - I think we can miss how hard he has worked to do this.
    True. But major mistakes and a lack of stamina cannot help but diminish the artistry of a program, even for a skater as good as Patrick.

  11. #151
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    Oh. let's just enjoy the bright side while we can. When Patrick skates as he did at the 2012 Nationals, triumph is tangible, and absolutely glorious. My obsession with him is based on the possibly of him feeling that way again, and this old biddy uber feeling that way again through him, and wishing it for him with all my heart. Negative thinking, even when well articulated, and well reasoned, introduces realism, which is so totally over rated, and so overstuffed into everyday non- skating-fandom life. Other people may believe in provable facts, our ability to break the speed of light, the perfectibility of human nature, or even an after life, I choose believe in Patrick, enough to hope he breaks 300.

    However, since you bring training up, he did say, after that transcendent short at the Worlds, now scarcely remembered, that had he trained all season as he trained the last few weeks, his year would have been vastly different. I can't imagine he's forgotten that little lesson already.

  12. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Enough elite athletes have done it. It takes a single-minded focus and unbelievable drive.
    Given the resources available to Patrick, and his ability to access and pay for them, there is no reason why he can't peak at the Olympics. Especially since he has no need to peak at Nationals.
    Of course, it's possible for an athlete to peak at the Olympics but still make mistakes that cost titles.
    I agree with quite a few of the points you brought up including the worry that Patrick won't enjoy his season if he doesn't win the Olympics and it is a valid concern that he may not be in the right frame of mind, the shape, and or the training situation to get there. But as I said above - I will be the first to cheer if that is NOT the case.

    However, as far as the part of the post I quoted above, I am not so sure.

    I mean - if we just look to 3 other Canadian champions - who are actually fine examples because I truly believe they were all exceptionally hard workers, determined and competitive, you can see it is not that easy. I would say they all had what you said was needed "single-minded focus and unbelievable drive."

    I know the reasons are complicated but Kurt Browning and Elvis Stojko were not able to peak at the Olympics and it is arguable that Jeff Buttle peaked at 2008 Worlds instead of the 2006 Olympics or the 2010 Olympics 2 years earlier or 2 years later. I am sure that, given the choice, they would have liked to have peaked , been uninjured - maintained the fire for competition etc to have won gold at the Olympics - but they did not. And they are really good examples because each of them was capable of being the best in the world - just not during the Olympics.

    Don't get me wrong - I am not criticizing any of these men whom I admire a great deal (even if I don't particularly love Stojko's skating or comments)

    Brian Orser is probably the only Canadian World Champion who WAS able to peak at an Olympics and he did it at not one but 2 Olympics - and because of figures and someone peaking just that little bit better than him still didn't achieve gold.

    And then there is Michelle Kwan.

    These journeys make me believe it is one of the most difficult things to achieve - peaking at the Olympics.

    And we can also argue that of the athletes who have won Olympic gold -- that some of them may have at least partially lucked out with their peaking happening at the Olympics rather than it being a carefully planned and executed journey. Possibly Oksana Baiul or Ilia Kulik? I may be wrong - and they were just that good that they were able to plan it that way - but there is a possibility that their peak years just happened to coincide with the Olympic cycle.

    I do think that is only the rarest of skaters and teams that are able to make it happen - and that statistically they are the exception rather than the rule.

  13. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    I agree with quite a few of the points you brought up including the worry that Patrick won't enjoy his season if he doesn't win the Olympics and it is a valid concern that he may not be in the right frame of mind, the shape, and or the training situation to get there. But as I said above - I will be the first to cheer if that is NOT the case.
    I'll be cheering right along with you.


    I mean - if we just look to 3 other Canadian champions - who are actually fine examples because I truly believe they were all exceptionally hard workers, determined and competitive, you can see it is not that easy. I would say they all had what you said was needed "single-minded focus and unbelievable drive."

    I know the reasons are complicated but Kurt Browning and Elvis Stojko were not able to peak at the Olympics and it is arguable that Jeff Buttle peaked at 2008 Worlds instead of the 2006 Olympics or the 2010 Olympics 2 years earlier or 2 years later. I am sure that, given the choice, they would have liked to have peaked , been uninjured - maintained the fire for competition etc to have won gold at the Olympics - but they did not. And they are really good examples because each of them was capable of being the best in the world - just not during the Olympics.
    I was defining 'peaking' loosely, in the sense of a high-ranking elite athlete being in the best form possible during the strongest years of his/her career. Two-four years isn't a rare amount of time for a top contender to stay in the running. Yes, there are some flashes in the pan, but I wouldn't count Chan among them.

    Perfect 'timing' in terms of being at the peak career-wise at the right time in the Olympic cycle is far trickier, because it is only one competition in four years. Yagudin is one for whom that timing was perfect.

    I didn't follow Browning at his two Olympics, but Elvis was on the rise in 94 and arguably peaked in 97, but might have retained form in '98 were it not for the groin injury. I'm not sure when Buttle peaked but the 98 win was a bit of a fluke in that the stars lined up for an usually inconsistent skater.

    Also, if Patrick hasn't peaked yet, wouldn't it be the season for it? I feared that he might peak last season, but that didn't happen. Are his best years over and is he on the decline?


    And we can also argue that of the athletes who have won Olympic gold -- that some of them may have at least partially lucked out with their peaking happening at the Olympics rather than it being a carefully planned and executed journey. Possibly Oksana Baiul or Ilia Kulik? I may be wrong - and they were just that good that they were able to plan it that way - but there is a possibility that their peak years just happened to coincide with the Olympic cycle.
    I think Kulik peaked at the Olympics. Even a perfect Elvis would not have beat him.

    And some skaters not only peak, but also benefit from the mistakes of others (i.e. Lysacek).

  14. #154
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    Other than Kurt who dominated no other skater (including Elvis )dominated in that pre Yags/plushy era in the same way as Patrick has.

    I am not concerned with last year. Even before the year began Patrick said that he would be concentrating on different things and may not win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    Chan has never hidden the fact that had he won gold (or possibly any medal) in Vancouver he'd have been history. Figure skating is his job and he has devoted his young life to being the best that he can be - but he can't approach it like a Kurt Browning, who has kept his love for skating going for more than two decades. Patrick's goal is that elusive Olympic gold medal and the coaching/choreographer choices he makes are made as much to help keep his head in the game as they are to maintain and improve his skills. I can't imagine what an ordeal the last few years have been for him especially given the viciousness of the criticism directed at him. That's why I believe Patrick's the only one who knows what he needs and what is right for him.
    I totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corianna View Post
    Oh. let's just enjoy the bright side while we can. When Patrick skates as he did at the 2012 Nationals, triumph is tangible, and absolutely glorious. My obsession with him is based on the possibly of him feeling that way again, and this old biddy uber feeling that way again through him, and wishing it for him with all my heart. Negative thinking, even when well articulated, and well reasoned, introduces realism, which is so totally over rated, and so overstuffed into everyday non- skating-fandom life. Other people may believe in provable facts, our ability to break the speed of light, the perfectibility of human nature, or even an after life, I choose believe in Patrick, enough to hope he breaks 300.
    Perfectly said.

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    As I recall, Browning had a serious back injury that knocked him out of Canadians (Michael Slipchuk won) and wrecked his training leading to the 1992 Olympics. That was Kurt's time. Victor Petrenko has his medal 1994 was a whole different ball game. Kurt was 27 years old and while in 1993 he had regained his form enough to get his title back, his jumps were never as consistent as before the injury. He also said his head wasn't really into the 1994 Olympics, but he stayed because it was only two years away. I think age probably factored in Buttle's decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    As I recall, Browning had a serious back injury that knocked him out of Canadians (Michael Slipchuk won) and wrecked his training leading to the 1992 Olympics. That was Kurt's time. Victor Petrenko has his medal 1994 was a whole different ball game. Kurt was 27 years old and while in 1993 he had regained his form enough to get his title back, his jumps were never as consistent as before the injury. He also said his head wasn't really into the 1994 Olympics, but he stayed because it was only two years away. I think age probably factored in Buttle's decision.
    I think so too, blueglass. A common theme among all these athletes seem to be 'take care of your body'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corianna
    Oh. let's just enjoy the bright side while we can. When Patrick skates as he did at the 2012 Nationals, triumph is tangible, and absolutely glorious. My obsession with him is based on the possibly of him feeling that way again, and this old biddy uber feeling that way again through him, and wishing it for him with all my heart.
    I couldn't agree more, Corianna. Whatever the outcome, I will take it (quoting Emdee).

    Last season is over. Time to put whatever happened last season to rest and look forward to the next season’s programs. Go Patrick!


    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar
    NBCOlympics ‏@NBCOlympics 12h
    #BehindtheScenes: We spent Sunday on the golf course with 3x world champion figure skater Patrick Chan:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BSjUaYTIcAA1vN2.jpg:large
    Hmmm..... is Patrick thinking of taking up golf after figure skating?
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    Chan has never hidden the fact that had he won gold (or possibly any medal) in Vancouver he'd have been history. Figure skating is his job and he has devoted his young life to being the best that he can be - but he can't approach it like a Kurt Browning, who has kept his love for skating going for more than two decades. Patrick's goal is that elusive Olympic gold medal and the coaching/choreographer choices he makes are made as much to help keep his head in the game as they are to maintain and improve his skills. I can't imagine what an ordeal the last few years have been for him especially given the viciousness of the criticism directed at him. That's why I believe Patrick's the only one who knows what he needs and what is right for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    . . . Patrick's goal is that elusive Olympic gold medal . . .
    . . . that rarely goes well.

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    Patrick Uber Thread - from Vancouver to Sochi

    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    . . . that rarely goes well.
    Well, everyone wants it and someone's going to get it. So I guess it's not going to go well for the majority of the field lol.

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