View Poll Results: Happiest Olympic silver medialist?

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  • Stephane Lambiel (2006)

    27 12.80%
  • Paul Wylie (1992)

    81 38.39%
  • Elizabeth Manley (1988)

    71 33.65%
  • Kitty & Peter Carruthers (1984)

    4 1.90%
  • Dan Zhang & Hao Zhang (2006)

    6 2.84%
  • Qing Pang & Jian Tong (2010)

    9 4.27%
  • Isabelle & Paul Duschenay (1992)

    2 0.95%
  • Tanith Belbin & Benjamin Agosto (2006)

    7 3.32%
  • Other

    4 1.90%
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Why are people ranking Liz Manley so high when people say she was so bitter about it in her autobiography? She felt she was robbed or something.
    I'm going to have to read her autobiography...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Why are people ranking Liz Manley so high when people say she was so bitter about it in her autobiography? She felt she was robbed or something.
    I didn't vote for her, but we can't deny that she was really, really happy with her performance. Then, I don't know about her autobiography, but really, I would agree that Katarina Witt was over-rated in 1988 !

  3. #63
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    I can see a strong or possible case for Manley deserving the overall gold in 1988 but her sour attitude towards it, and even rehashing it decades later is a major turn off.

    Michelle Kwan for instance has just as much feeling to think she possibly robbed of the gold in 1998 (personally I agreed with the 98 result, but that is aside the point), and she had far more reason given her overall career to be dissapointed with not winning an Oly Gold than Manley who had not even medalled at a Worlds going into Calgary, and had been known as a great talent but headcase and choker up to that point. Yet she was far more gracious about the result, and after Salt Lake City practically never brings the Nagano result up, as opposed to Manley who looks to milk it at each opportunity. I nearly choked in disgust when during the Sale & Pelletier SLC saga Linda Fratianne and Elizabeth Manley both took the opportunity to scream up that the ISU and IOC should investigate and give them a gold medal too. Wouldnt surprise me if Sumners did as well, and I just didnt hear about, the 80s collection of sour silver girls.

    Now had she lost the gold to Witt by not beating her in the LP I could symphathize slightly more, but she clearly beat Witt in the LP with the judges, nearly every judge having her 1st. The factored points system meant Witt barely held on to win as she had placed higher in the figures and short program.

    Manley should blame her own small mistakes in the short for costing her gold. She wobbled on both her combination jump and camel spin, and still lost 2nd in the short to Thomas who had a harder combo and skated squeeky clean by 1 or 2 judges only. She clearly had the opportunity to place higher in the short and despite not going into the Games as a gold contender, control her own destiny in the long, but failed to do so. I thought Witt and Manley were both held up and overplaced in the short program, but atleast Witt's short program performance was completely clean and far better on the presentation side than Manley's was. Despite her mistakes and the easiest jump combination in the final flight, Manley was actually given higher technical marks than Witt, higher presentation marks than Thomas, and higher on both marks than Ito and Kadavy both, which I thought was plenty generous for that skate.

    I saw Witt's figures and they were really quite bad and I have no doubt she was held up to place 3rd. However I didnt see Manley's but often her figures were not great, and unlike Worlds where there was talk of how great her figures were and how she was robbed of 1st place in them, nobody noted Manley's figures in Calgary so I doubt they were anything great there either. She may well have gotten a home court boost to be over Leistner and Trenary who are noted for excellent figures, for all we know.

    Manley probably thinks as many did that Ito should have beaten Witt in the long, which she nearly did, and which would have given Manley the gold. However I and many others also think Ito should have beaten Manley in the long also. I guess realistically since the judges were never going to "let" Ito win the long, one can say they probably should have placed her 2nd which would have given Manley the gold, but Witt was the defending Olympic Champion and many time World Champion, so it is understandable to why that didnt happen.


    My personal placements, giving benefit of doubt to the judges in the figures portion would have been:

    Manley- 4th figures, 6th short, 1st or 2nd free
    Witt- 3rd figures, 5th short, 3rd free
    Thomas- 2nd figures, 1st or 2nd short, 5th long
    Ito- 10 figures, 1st or 2nd short, 1st or 2nd long

    So Manley would have won under mine, but just barely. I have a hard time feeling she was really that robbed when:

    1. IMO had Thomas been given the lead she deserved over Witt (and even more Manley) going into the LP (and there was some who said she should have won the figures over Ivanova who did not do her best figures) than she would have been more relaxed for the free program and skated a better performance. Even if she didnt the lead she might have had over Witt and Manley under my placings might have given her the gold even with the 4th place in the long she was able to manage anyway.

    2. Had the figures been worth only 20% by Calgary, which IMO they should have been, rather than 30%, and Ito been marked fairly in the short and long programs she might have won overall too, especialy with Witt and Manley's short programs not deserving of top

    3. Had both Thomas and Manley been able to control their own destiny over Witt in the LP, and not just Thomas, she may have done a completely different skate. Also my placements (if Manley were only 2nd in the long) would have her the two ending up tied in factored points, and Manley only coming out ahead due to the long being the tiebreaker, so it is not as if she would have a commanding win, and anyway one could easily argue for them being more than 1 placement apart in the short just as they were. Manley deserving a rather low placing in the short is even more obvious than Witt arguably deserving it IMO.


    I can see her still thinking she deserved the gold perhaps, but nothing that could warrant her raising such a stink about, and being as bitter about it as she was. Especialy given that she did win the LP decisively, people always mention that she won the LP, and that given her pre Olympic erratic and underachieving career she should have been thrilled with winning silver and nearly the gold, when the Olympics were supposed to Thomas and Witt a lock to go 1-2. Her enthusiasm when she intially won the silver was incredible to see, and a great moment, and her sourpuss attitude about losing the gold in the aftermath takes something away from that so it a shame.




    I do think Manley has a stronger case for being robbed of the gold at the 88 Worlds, and on that event I will give her more of a pass on her frusteration and comments.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 06-28-2013 at 01:20 AM.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Wouldnt surprise me if Sumners did as well
    I'd be shocked to learn that she had, despite her open disagreement with her short program placement in Sarajevo.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    I'd be shocked to learn that she had, despite her open disagreement with her short program placement in Sarajevo.
    I actually agreed with her placement of 5th in the Sarajevo short due to her mistake, and the value of mistakes in the short program then. Just would have had her over Kondrashova whose performance was shaky and behind Zayak instead. However I do actually think her marks in the short were too low, so on that I agree with her, and I am not a Sumners fan in the least. I didnt think her mistake was that big, and didnt think it was that huge a deduction then, just barely putting your foot down on a jump. Since the judges were probably planning to put her 1st (or atleast 2nd) had she skated cleanly it looks like they took .4 to .6 off which seems alot. Then again her free program marks were much too high for what she did as well.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by muffinbiscuit View Post
    I don't think Ros Sumners was particularly happy about getting silver in '84. She was expected to win.
    This. She was devastated.

  7. #67
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    I think the Duchesnays were similarly disappointed at their second place finish in 1992. It seems odd to even see them in this poll.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I think the Duchesnays were similarly disappointed at their second place finish in 1992. It seems odd to even see them in this poll.
    I am even more baffled than Manley is almost winning this poll. FSU polls and how people vote are always a great source of entertainment.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I can see a strong or possible case for Manley deserving the overall gold in 1988 but her sour attitude towards it, and even rehashing it decades later is a major turn off.

    Michelle Kwan for instance has just as much feeling to think she possibly robbed of the gold in 1998 (personally I agreed with the 98 result, but that is aside the point), and she had far more reason given her overall career to be dissapointed with not winning an Oly Gold than Manley who had not even medalled at a Worlds going into Calgary, and had been known as a great talent but headcase and choker up to that point. Yet she was far more gracious about the result, and after Salt Lake City practically never brings the Nagano result up, as opposed to Manley who looks to milk it at each opportunity. I nearly choked in disgust when during the Sale & Pelletier SLC saga Linda Fratianne and Elizabeth Manley both took the opportunity to scream up that the ISU and IOC should investigate and give them a gold medal too. Wouldnt surprise me if Sumners did as well, and I just didnt hear about, the 80s collection of sour silver girls.

    Now had she lost the gold to Witt by not beating her in the LP I could symphathize slightly more, but she clearly beat Witt in the LP with the judges, nearly every judge having her 1st. The factored points system meant Witt barely held on to win as she had placed higher in the figures and short program.

    Manley should blame her own small mistakes in the short for costing her gold. She wobbled on both her combination jump and camel spin, and still lost 2nd in the short to Thomas who had a harder combo and skated squeeky clean by 1 or 2 judges only. She clearly had the opportunity to place higher in the short and despite not going into the Games as a gold contender, control her own destiny in the long, but failed to do so. I thought Witt and Manley were both held up and overplaced in the short program, but atleast Witt's short program performance was completely clean and far better on the presentation side than Manley's was. Despite her mistakes and the easiest jump combination in the final flight, Manley was actually given higher technical marks than Witt, higher presentation marks than Thomas, and higher on both marks than Ito and Kadavy both, which I thought was plenty generous for that skate.

    I saw Witt's figures and they were really quite bad and I have no doubt she was held up to place 3rd. However I didnt see Manley's but often her figures were not great, and unlike Worlds where there was talk of how great her figures were and how she was robbed of 1st place in them, nobody noted Manley's figures in Calgary so I doubt they were anything great there either. She may well have gotten a home court boost to be over Leistner and Trenary who are noted for excellent figures, for all we know.

    Manley probably thinks as many did that Ito should have beaten Witt in the long, which she nearly did, and which would have given Manley the gold. However I and many others also think Ito should have beaten Manley in the long also. I guess realistically since the judges were never going to "let" Ito win the long, one can say they probably should have placed her 2nd which would have given Manley the gold, but Witt was the defending Olympic Champion and many time World Champion, so it is understandable to why that didnt happen.


    My personal placements, giving benefit of doubt to the judges in the figures portion would have been:

    Manley- 4th figures, 6th short, 1st or 2nd free
    Witt- 3rd figures, 5th short, 3rd free
    Thomas- 2nd figures, 1st or 2nd short, 5th long
    Ito- 10 figures, 1st or 2nd short, 1st or 2nd long

    So Manley would have won under mine, but just barely. I have a hard time feeling she was really that robbed when:

    1. IMO had Thomas been given the lead she deserved over Witt (and even more Manley) going into the LP (and there was some who said she should have won the figures over Ivanova who did not do her best figures) than she would have been more relaxed for the free program and skated a better performance. Even if she didnt the lead she might have had over Witt and Manley under my placings might have given her the gold even with the 4th place in the long she was able to manage anyway.

    2. Had the figures been worth only 20% by Calgary, which IMO they should have been, rather than 30%, and Ito been marked fairly in the short and long programs she might have won overall too, especialy with Witt and Manley's short programs not deserving of top

    3. Had both Thomas and Manley been able to control their own destiny over Witt in the LP, and not just Thomas, she may have done a completely different skate. Also my placements (if Manley were only 2nd in the long) would have her the two ending up tied in factored points, and Manley only coming out ahead due to the long being the tiebreaker, so it is not as if she would have a commanding win, and anyway one could easily argue for them being more than 1 placement apart in the short just as they were. Manley deserving a rather low placing in the short is even more obvious than Witt arguably deserving it IMO.


    I can see her still thinking she deserved the gold perhaps, but nothing that could warrant her raising such a stink about, and being as bitter about it as she was. Especialy given that she did win the LP decisively, people always mention that she won the LP, and that given her pre Olympic erratic and underachieving career she should have been thrilled with winning silver and nearly the gold, when the Olympics were supposed to Thomas and Witt a lock to go 1-2. Her enthusiasm when she intially won the silver was incredible to see, and a great moment, and her sourpuss attitude about losing the gold in the aftermath takes something away from that so it a shame.




    I do think Manley has a stronger case for being robbed of the gold at the 88 Worlds, and on that event I will give her more of a pass on her frusteration and comments.
    I didn't read Manleys book, but I agree if theres any event she should be angrier about its 88 worlds. There the judges didn't make Witt work for that world title, like she did in 87. Manley clearly outskated the field, and Ito had a sloppy skate there as it was.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I think the Duchesnays were similarly disappointed at their second place finish in 1992. It seems odd to even see them in this poll.
    Yeah, they were definitely not happy with that silver medal, especially after winning worlds the year before.

  11. #71
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    The Duchesnays were not at all happy with the silver, but they should have been since their performances in Albertville would have placed them 4th at best had it not been for their World Champion status and home ice advantage. Had they been 3rd at the 91 Worlds and Usova & Zhulin 1st rather than the other way around (which every nearly happened), and Olympics been in Japan or Canada or Finland for instance you would have seen them in 4th or 5th place with their tired, flat, and unimaginative Olympic performances, with none of the spark that usually mark their inferior tech. abilities, rather than very nearly winning.

    In fairness to them I think they were beat up emotionally by then with the sadness of their brother dieing, and all the insane pressure from the French though. I think that was more what their expressions and feelings were by the end, rather than the dissapointment of losing the gold. It was more numbness from the whole last 6 months. I do commend them for getting through the competition even as well as they did, without a disaester somewhere, all things considered.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The Duchesnays were not at all happy with the silver, but they should have been since their performances in Albertville would have placed them 4th at best had it not been for their World Champion status and home ice advantage. Had they been 3rd at the 91 Worlds and Usova & Zhulin 1st rather than the other way around (which every nearly happened), and Olympics been in Japan or Canada or Finland for instance you would have seen them in 4th or 5th place with their tired, flat, and unimaginative Olympic performances, with none of the spark that usually mark their inferior tech. abilities, rather than very nearly winning.
    Yeah, WSS was definitely inferior to their Missing I & II routines and their 1988 Olympics FD. I heard that Isabelle/Paul wanted to do something more interesting than WSS, but were practically forced to do WSS by Christopher Dean..

  13. #73
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    I think WSS could have been a really good program with more mileage. However it still was nothing groundbreaking like much of their past work. Bottom line is the Duchensays have to do something outrageously different each time out. Otherwise they are absolutely no better than the typical generic top 10 team, other than their reputations in the sport by then.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Liz Manley looked absolutely thrilled at her skate, her marks, her placement, on the podium and during the victory lap. That's why I voted for her. I didn't read her autobiographies, but I've heard they're particularly trashy. I'm throwing out a theory that she became bitter after she left the arena and everyone began telling her she was robbed.
    I imagine she became angry as she grew older and less attractive and saw how much money Katarina got for years thereafter. She only got a brief burst of Olympic publicity. She likely wanted that gold medal when years later she saw how much extra pay it brought for the same amount of work.

    Despite her bitterness, she became quite a successful cougar though. Of Debi, Katarina, Jill Trenary, Caryn Kadavy, and Elizabeth Manley, all of them followed in the tradition of Sonja Henie of either having multiple husbands (I think Debi is on husband #3) or a string of colorful love affairs. Jill I guess only has had one husband so far, but her choice of husband makes up for her numerical shortcomings.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The Duchesnays were not at all happy with the silver, but they should have been since their performances in Albertville would have placed them 4th at best had it not been for their World Champion status and home ice advantage. Had they been 3rd at the 91 Worlds and Usova & Zhulin 1st rather than the other way around (which every nearly happened), and Olympics been in Japan or Canada or Finland for instance you would have seen them in 4th or 5th place with their tired, flat, and unimaginative Olympic performances, with none of the spark that usually mark their inferior tech. abilities, rather than very nearly winning.

    In fairness to them I think they were beat up emotionally by then with the sadness of their brother dieing, and all the insane pressure from the French though. I think that was more what their expressions and feelings were by the end, rather than the dissapointment of losing the gold. It was more numbness from the whole last 6 months. I do commend them for getting through the competition even as well as they did, without a disaester somewhere, all things considered.
    Couldn't agree more, they looked devastated, but rather like physically and emotionally exhausted than disappointed. Their bravery on that evening is one of the reasons why I admire them so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Yeah, WSS was definitely inferior to their Missing I & II routines and their 1988 Olympics FD. I heard that Isabelle/Paul wanted to do something more interesting than WSS, but were practically forced to do WSS by Christopher Dean..
    That's what a short biography edited by Toller Cranston says and I believe it, it makes sense to me. Dean suggested WSS (according to his autobio), but would have refused to do their choreography if they hadn't agreed. Admittedly, they perfectly fit in the roles of Maria and Bernardo, but considering the fact that the two characters do not appear together in acting, neither in the stageplay nor in the movie, the idea was kinda queer. They had to explain to the public and the journalists beforehand what they were actually doing.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyjosie View Post

    That's what a short biography edited by Toller Cranston says and I believe it, it makes sense to me. Dean suggested WSS (according to his autobio), but would have refused to do their choreography if they hadn't agreed. Admittedly, they perfectly fit in the roles of Maria and Bernardo, but considering the fact that the two characters do not appear together in acting, neither in the stageplay nor in the movie, the idea was kinda queer. They had to explain to the public and the journalists beforehand what they were actually doing.
    Yeah, I think I might have read that in Cranston's own book, or else it was another book. I've never actually read a book about the Duschesnays exclusively.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I am mesmerized by Lambiel's skating. If he was clean or close to clean in 2010, he would win and definitely deserve to. He had everything (and still does judging from All That Skate 2013). Plushenko's lack of everything but jumps was evident even next to Lysacek. A clean and inspired Lambiel would have destroyed him.

    In 2006 though, he was the reigning world champion but I don't think he had accumulated enough cred at that point to overtake Plushenko even with a clean skate simply because Plushenko was the sentimental and political favorite. I have no doubt he would deserve to though.
    Lambiel had a very poor performance in 2010, he was far far away the skater he used to be, just like Plushenko. In 2006 he lacked not only a clean performance but also a convincing one. And probably you' watched other event because in 2010 Plushenko's jumps weren't that great, especially in LP, which cost him the OGM.

  18. #78

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    Have any of the three posters who voted for "other" said who they think was a happier silver medalist, than those listed? (I know the Sumners reference was a joke )
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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    I read the question to mean happiest at the moment of winning, not happiest afterwards. That is why I picked Manley. My favorite, however, and the happiest long-run, would be Wylie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I really doubt it. The judges were in love with Lambiel during that time, and even though COP was the harshest to his spins during that Olympics, he always received very high PCS and could be counted on for quads if clean. Buttle couldn't land a quad, Oda couldn't count on a good day, Weir was well-liked and maybe even loved but not as much as Lambiel, Lysaceck was just starting so he wouldn't have gotten the PCS or GOE boost, Takahashi was just making a name for himself so I could see him placing 4th or sneaking in for a medal, and Joubert lost to Lambiel when it was close, so Lambiel was where it was.

    The judges were still in love with Lambiel in 2010 just by looking at his PCS despite the fact that it was probably his worst performed LP (in terms of actual performance) ever.
    Lambiel was very lucky that Jeff bombed the SP, because even with his mistake-riddled LP, Jeff was close to getting the silver over him.

    And Lysacek beat Stephane in the LP, and had a world bronze medal to his name. He had the 'rep', but lucky for Stephane, Evan also bombed in the SP.

    He got his silver based on the mistakes of others, so his joy at having it is really understandable.

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