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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    So, she kept her medical information private--just as 99% of the general public does. When she was offered $6 million to talk about the medication she was using, she accepted--just as 99% of the public would. Not seeing the problem with this. There's an agency that actually specializes in negotiating pharma endorsements with celebrities. Should we hate Sally Field for keeping mum on her osteoporosis until she cut a deal with Boniva?

    Heck, if some pharmaceutical company offered to pay me $6 million, I'd even make up a disease to tell America I have. Rectal prolapse? Sure.
    I honestly don't think that 99% of the public would take money in exchange for sharing their personal health issues. There are many people who talk openly about their health and even become activists for their cause, but I think there are many who would prefer not to. I know I wouldn't do it, and when I think of family members who are going through various health issues I can say with certainty that no amount of money would be enough for them to go on tv and talk about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    And in Deen's situation, IMO there's also an ethical/moral issue. Her endorsement could give the impression that it's OK to eat unhealthy food like she makes, because then you can just fix all the problems that diet causes by taking drugs. The easier/cheaper way to address the problem for a lot of people would be to not eat like that.
    Exactly - that's the difference here. It's well known that diet and diabetes are closely related, so for her to carry on promoting a diabetic-unfriendly diet for three years while she negotiated an endorsement deal was just plain dishonest. And, there are many, many people out there who believe that the "take a pill" solution is incomplete without appropriate lifestyle choices as well.

    She could have done it the way another celebrity chef did it years ago - Paul Prudhomme. His cooking style was very unhealthy until he came out and said he now knew better, and started promoting lighter versions of his recipes. Graham Kerr is another one - way back in his heyday, he was known for loading up dishes with unhealthy ingredients, so when he got smarter, so did his cooking shows where he actively promoted healthier choices.

    Paula could have done something similar - been open and honest about her diagnosis a lot sooner, and helping her followers refine their diets and get more active. Of course, big pharma would rather than not happen, and for many, it felt like Paula went along with that so she could continue selling her old style cooking (shows, restaurants, books, magazines) rather than taking the opportunity to really do something about it.

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I think the real "sociological issue" here isn't how people are contradictory in how they respond to supposedly similar situations since it's pretty clear that most of these situations aren't that comparable and that the "people" who are supposedly being contradictory aren't even the same people.
    This is bang on - bold is my emphasis. Definitely a logical fallacy and common mistake here on FSU and out there in the rest of the world.

    Sorry about the double post - I think I tried to quote too many posts and then the system dropped a bunch when I tried to post! Another thought I wanted to add, re use of n word. Reading through the latest posts, I was thinking to myself that I had never used the word either, and had very rarely heard it outside of movies and music, and old books. But then I remembered the rhyme so many of us probably repeated over and over as little kids - there are variations of it of course, but the version I remember of "eenie meanie miney moe" included the n word when I was very small, and it's definitely something I would have learned from other kids and not my parents or teachers. I vaguely recall that someone at some point (not sure if a parent, teacher or another kid) said that tiger was a better choice of word.

  3. #343
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    [QUOTE=MacMadame;3949045]I think the real "sociological issue" here isn't how people are contradictory in how they respond to supposedly similar situations since it's pretty clear that most of these situations aren't that comparable and that the "people" who are supposedly being contradictory aren't even the same people. What I think is interesting is how far people will bend themselves into a pretzel to excuse behavior that they normally wouldn't excuse if someone they like or admire does it.[/QUOTE]

    Absolutely.

  4. #344
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    http://www.today.com/food/deen-lawsu...ays-6C10512264

    The woman who sued Paula Deen, bringing to light revelations that have seriously hurt the celeb chef's business empire, said Monday that her “lawsuit has never been about the N-word.”

    In a statement to TODAY.com, Lisa Jackson said that the real purpose of her lawsuit was “to address Ms. Deen’s patterns of disrespect and degradation of people that she deems to be inferior.”

    “I may be a white woman, but I could no longer tolerate her abuse of power as a business owner, nor her condonation of Mr. Hier’s despicable behavior on a day-to-day basis,” she continued in the statement. “I am what I am, and I am a human being that cares about discrimination in the workplace. In part, in this circumstance, I have to be a voice for those who are too afraid to use theirs."
    Lawyers for Deen have argued that, “Jackson cannot enforce someone else’s right, and she has no actionable claim for feeling ‘uncomfortable’ around discriminatory conduct directed at others.”
    Last edited by orbitz; 07-02-2013 at 10:23 PM.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    But then I remembered the rhyme so many of us probably repeated over and over as little kids - there are variations of it of course, but the version I remember of "eenie meanie miney moe" included the n word when I was very small, and it's definitely something I would have learned from other kids and not my parents or teachers. I vaguely recall that someone at some point (not sure if a parent, teacher or another kid) said that tiger was a better choice of word.
    I remember that rhyme. I learned it with tiger. I remember hearing other children using the "n" word, in the rhyme, and asking my parents what the word meant. They told me it was a mean word and that I should never, ever say it.

  6. #346
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    Tiger was the only way I ever heard that. I must not be far enough south. We had a farm and were never ever allowed to use the n word. I hate the word even when the comedians use it and would be afraid of getting my a•• beat. It will be interesting to hear all sides regarding the business and Uncle Bubba. I've seen him on her show and kind of believe it. A couple of years ago when this was first came to light, she started having more blacks on her show (Chris rock's mother was one of them) She said she never really found him funny, and she was serious.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    It's well known that diet and diabetes are closely related, so for her to carry on promoting a diabetic-unfriendly diet for three years while she negotiated an endorsement deal was just plain dishonest. And, there are many, many people out there who believe that the "take a pill" solution is incomplete without appropriate lifestyle choices as well.
    How do you know that she kept quiet about the issue for three years only because she didn't have an endorsement deal? Is it impossible that she just chose not to disclose it for a time, as was her right to do, and then the pharma deal came along? Or, maybe, as many diabetics experience, she went through several unsatisfactory medications, but then had success with this one? Maybe she liked the product and made six million dollars talking about liking it. The company enjoyed a business relationship with her, and then ended that relationship when it was no longer a good fit. Where's the problem here?

  8. #348
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    You're being deliberately obtuse, heckles, or you're showing your true IQ. You must know that wasn't the point of Jenny's post.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    You must know that wasn't the point of Jenny's post.
    You're right. I suspect the real point is that some people are jealous that they can't make $6 mil talking about their medications.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    The woman who sued Paula Deen, bringing to light revelations that have seriously hurt the celeb chef's business empire, said Monday that her “lawsuit has never been about the N-word.”

    In a statement to TODAY.com, Lisa Jackson said that the real purpose of her lawsuit was “to address Ms. Deen’s patterns of disrespect and degradation of people that she deems to be inferior.”
    It's good that she's re-emphasized this fact. So many have simply reduced this to Paula Deen using the N-word many years ago.

  11. #351
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    Did you seriously just use the 'you're just jealous' argument, heckles? Really? That has to be the laziest argument on the internet.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    You're right. I suspect the real point is that some people are jealous that they can't make $6 mil talking about their medications.
    Actually it is astounding that some woman with limited cooking ability can make $$$$$ and be on television teaching people to cook. We live in a bizarre world. I'm not jealous of her, in any way. I don't need money that much that I would want to be anything like her.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Actually it is astounding that some woman with limited cooking ability can make $$$$$ and be on television teaching people to cook.
    She got popular largely because of her apparent lack of culinary degrees, so viewers thought that they could make what she was making. That, and because some people like eating tacky food. If billions were made in the white-trash entertainment heavens that are KFC and NASCAR, it's unsurprising that someone eventually realized that the same schtick could be downsized to the kitchen.
    Last edited by heckles; 07-03-2013 at 03:30 AM.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    How do you know that she kept quiet about the issue for three years only because she didn't have an endorsement deal? Is it impossible that she just chose not to disclose it for a time, as was her right to do, and then the pharma deal came along? Or, maybe, as many diabetics experience, she went through several unsatisfactory medications, but then had success with this one? Maybe she liked the product and made six million dollars talking about liking it. The company enjoyed a business relationship with her, and then ended that relationship when it was no longer a good fit. Where's the problem here?
    Yes, it's possible that she went through several medications and then was so pleased with the last one that she approached the company and said "hey I love your product, can I represent you?" and they said "yes, because we think your followers are exactly the type of people who will rely on drugs rather than lifestyle changes to address their diabetes, which is just fine by us."

    But it's the timing, don't you see? If she really and truly wanted to help all her fans and other Americans like her deal with their diabetes, then she would have started changing her ways immediately, whether she was comfortable talking about her personal health or not. Instead, she carried on with all the butter and sugar *knowing* that it was bad for her, but continuing to promote that diet to her fans.

    Instead of sharing her story with her fans, she waited until someone paid her to do it. And in the mean time, she did nothing to try and help those that she knows she has an influence on - in fact, she did the opposite.

    And yeah, I'd love it if somebody handed me $6 million dollars, and hell I'm a pretty good cook, but I don't want to be famous, I don't want a tv show or restaurants, I don't want to talk about my personal health in public, and I'd never, ever get in bed with big pharma, no matter what they paid me. Jealous? No way - I'm quite happy with my life just the way it is

    On a related note, the new season of Big Brother has just started, and several of the competitors have made some seriously racist remarks on the live feeds. One of them just lost a modelling contract because of it.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Yes, it's possible that she went through several medications and then was so pleased with the last one that she approached the company and said "hey I love your product, can I represent you?" and they said "yes, because we think your followers are exactly the type of people who will rely on drugs rather than lifestyle changes to address their diabetes, which is just fine by us."
    The problem with your sub-theory there is that Paula and the pharma company didn't make any claims that the drug enabled the patient to avoid "lifestyle changes." In fact, changes to diet and exercise were repeatedly promoted by both in the subsequent marketing campaign. You did know that Paula, her husband and her sons dropped weight, yes? Also, you don't think that patient will likely receive such recommendations for his or her medical provider, and/or health insurance provider?

    This thread isn't the first time I've seen an implication that an overweight diabetic brought the condition on himself or herself by lifestyle alone, and therefore must address the condition by "lifestyle changes." Why not address the issue by both lifestyle changes and medication? We don't deny medical treatment for heart attacks to people whose lifestyles were too stressful, or a multitude of other medical treatments to people who made bad choices that landed them in the hospital, so this philosophy you and some others--many of whom probably don't even know their own A1Cs--seem to have toward Paula Deen's diabetic treatment seems rooted in fat-shaming and hypocrisy.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    We don't deny medical treatment for heart attacks to people whose lifestyles were too stressful, or a multitude of other medical treatments to people who made bad choices that landed them in the hospital, so this philosophy you and some others--many of whom probably don't even know their own A1Cs--seem to have toward Paula Deen's diabetic treatment seems rooted in fat-shaming and hypocrisy.
    (my bold) Way to deflect from the actual argument some of us are making. No one has implied or said medication isn't an integral part of the treatment for diabetes.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    No one has implied or said medication isn't an integral part of the treatment for diabetes.
    Eh, this thread is riddled with judgment, including just a couple of posts up:

    "yes, because we think your followers are exactly the type of people who will rely on drugs rather than lifestyle changes to address their diabetes, which is just fine by us."

  18. #358
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    Not at all - I 100% agree that the best course of treatment includes lifestyle changes in the preventative and early stages, and then drug therapy and lifestyle changes in ongoing treatment. But the fact is that many people look for a pill or other quick fix to solve their problems rather than doing it the hard way and including lifestyle changes as well. My father has late onset diabetes - he was never overweight, but never ate well and never exercised either. Now he relies on drugs, and still refuses to eat better or exercise even a little, and it's a source of great heartbreak to my family as we watch him getting worse and worse and still refusing to do more than pop pills to address his condition (and others on a growing list). He's a big part of why I stopped eating sugar years ago - I know full well there are other factors involved, and that I'm a candidate based on family history as well as and my imperfect lifestyle choices.

    And yes, it's great that she's lost weight - but has she stopped promoting food that she knows can have a negative effect on someone who is a candidate for or who has diabetes? Her new cookbook has been cancelled, but a flip through the pages of her last one, published in 2011, plus her website, says no.

  19. #359
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    And yes, I'm absolutely judging big pharma. While of course there have been many medical miracles and countless lives made better by drug therapy, I also believe that the primary objective of big pharma is not to help create a healthier society or even save lives; it's to make money, and that objective overrides just about everything else they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    What I think is interesting is how far people will bend themselves into a pretzel to excuse behavior that they normally wouldn't excuse if someone they like or admire does it.
    At one end, some people will excuse despicable behavior that they know the person they admire engaged in.

    At the other end, some will immediately forswear all admiration and not only severely condemn the person for the behavior in question but also cut down all that person's previous qualities that generated the admiration in the first place.

    Others try to take a middle ground. But in playing devil's advocate against one extreme, their posts may end up supporting the opposite extreme.

    What happens with a lot of these news stories, in general online news outlets with comments, various blogs, and here at FSU, is that the initial reports of what happened are sketchy, so people start to fill in details based on their own unrelated experience or to engage in speculation about what might have happened in advance of the facts.

    In that process, those who admire the person will spin the possibilities to give the object of admiration all benefit of the doubt and to imagine scenarios that make them look as innocent as possible.

    Those who do not particularly admire the person, or who have very strong feelings against the alleged behavior, may immediately impute the worst level of guilt as a given and will consider any benefit of doubt to be apologetics for actual behavior.

    Eventually, more facts may come out that will shift opinions toward one side or the other. If the person admits the infraction or is legally convicted, even supporters have to admit their hero's guilt. If the person is eventually exonerated, those who hate the act have to back off from focusing that hate on this target.

    But by that time, the thread has often died down; the most heated debate tends to takes place during the process of interpreting incomplete, sometimes ambiguous initial reports.

    This thread isn't a very good example because there don't seem to be very many posters here who admired Paula Deen before this scandal.

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