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  1. #21

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    Which is more respectable is up to you to decide.

    And no, it isn't hard to believe that "there may be some judges" who are fair. There are MANY judges who are fair, and who are scrupulous about being fair, and who give unpaid hours and hours of effort to a sport that they love. The bad apples are in no way representative of the majority of judges.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  2. #22
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    Beyond insidious POLITIK implications, international judges can "support" their federation's skaters by, more innocuously, providing feedback and advice, in non-competition environments, to their own federation's skaters as to what international judges are actually grading and looking for.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Which is more respectable is up to you to decide.

    And no, it isn't hard to believe that "there may be some judges" who are fair. There are MANY judges who are fair, and who are scrupulous about being fair, and who give unpaid hours and hours of effort to a sport that they love. The bad apples are in no way representative of the majority of judges.
    ^^ Very fair, very idealistic.

    Yes, I suppose it's not hard to believe in theory perhaps or in actuality especially if you happen to have personally met each judge individually, or served as a judge yourself.


    BTW, good luck to Ron Pfenning.

  4. #24
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    There is no way my experience as a world judge cost the association of the US $100,000. I spent $10,000 of my OWN money working up the ladder to become a national judge and 10 years to do so, and I have IRS records to show as such. We paid all our own costs while trialing each level for competition as well as testing level which was required years ago. The costs for international competitions are mostly ISU paying most of the expenses and a portion of the plane ticket; all room and board is payed by the ISU for these functions. All USFS competitions, testing sessions ( miles travelled to the session only, food is provided if a long day) are funded by the US. I think Ron forgets to say that we do this for NO PAY, it is for our love of this sport to give back from the time we skated. Some of us have backgrounds which have directly given extra balance to the judging panel, and ALL of the international judges have continuous education provided by the ISU. There are schools in the US and most of the expenses are up to the judges attending. They pay a fee to attend mostly for food, etc. IT IS NOT FREE. SO I take issue with this amount of money spent on judges, as it sounds as if we were GIVEN money to do as we pleased. We spend long days judging, and test sessions are very long at times, during figure days, VERY long. Ron's actions with WSF caused his life long suspension from the ISU in the end, but this is not reason to criticize WHY of the other people who have NOT DECLARED they are running in the first place. There is a process for this as much in life has a structure for how something is done: the nomination committee sends out a memo that anyone can send in their resume to the committee for consideration for the job concerned around the fall of the year, then the nomination committee puts forward a slate, and then if there are no objections or if someone is to run from the floor at the next governing council meeting of the US, then there is a ballot vote for the candiates, if not, the slate is accepted by acclaimation. Ron has decided to start running early before the process is begun. There is not rule that says he cannot do this. I just wanted to let everyone who reads what is being written that there are some issues with the way many points have been stated such as this $100,000 being spent which seem stretched to fit an agenda. We judges serve the association for the love of helping skaters achieve their dreams from the club skater to the elite skater, and this is why we go at 6:30 of 7 in the morning to begin a test session, or a monitoring session for our skaters, or a local competition. Most of the money he speaks of is money spent for housing, food, etc, and travel: why should we PAY to do this for the association, as we do NOT RECEIVE pay for what we do, ONLY expenses. So how can one say the association has spent this much money on us, as much of it is provided by the ISU in the international realm. I was going to stay silent, but I cannot, as it now has hit home and what is being said at times is only part of the truth. It is selective picking of what information you want out there with your own political spin. I am sure I will be "trashed" for writing this reply, but one supports skating by staying IN an organization to help make it better, not try a new one to replace the old one, as THAT is a misguided assumption in my opinion. It would have caused our skaters at the elite level to not be able to go to who knows how many Olympics or Worlds, or any ISU even while the new group would be trying to meet the requirement necessary to become a governing body of figure skating if the US had joined this organization. Who knows what other federations around the world would have joined for the reason above and one that follows. Read the Olympic charter as to what is required to be the recognized body of a sport for the Olympics. I am dissapointed in how this is unfolding, as it has started to get "nasty" now with the putting down of people when asking, "why should they run" and the reasons the two women mentioned were being passed over. How does HE know this.

  5. #25

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    I find this argument against Ron Pfenning to be a non-starter. The ISU cannot and should not have any say as to the person elected as President of any of it's member federations/associations. U.S. Figure Skating elected presidents are not often/if seldom the ISU Representative to the council. The current USFS representative to the ISU is not President Pat St. Peter. The idea that Ron Pfenning could not successfully lead the USFS in it's National programs and goals because he no longer is a member of any standing within the ISU, is simply preposterous!
    There is nothing more captivating in this world than a woman's form gracing the ice in skating boots. It's simply sensational!

  6. #26
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    the ISU does not have any say as you presented. It is up to the governing body, the clubs and athletes' group to chose a president. He just will not be able to be credentialed or be apart of any meetings with the ISU which our president is invovled with constantly.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by joesk8judg View Post
    ... I am sure I will be "trashed" for writing this reply, but one supports skating by staying IN an organization to help make it better, not try a new one to replace the old one, as THAT is a misguided assumption in my opinion. It would have caused our skaters at the elite level to not be able to go to who knows how many Olympics or Worlds, or any ISU even while the new group would be trying to meet the requirement necessary to become a governing body of figure skating if the US had joined this organization. Who knows what other federations around the world would have joined for the reason above and one that follows. Read the Olympic charter as to what is required to be the recognized body of a sport for the Olympics...
    I'm a lowly skating fan with no intention to "trash" btw, but from your above comments I wonder do you also condemn others who were initially publicly supportive of the WSF effort, including Dick Button, Scott Hamilton, and Paul Wylie?

    Granted the effort proved to be ill-planned, ill-timed and thus ultimately misguided. Did you speak out against it publicly or privately at the time?

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Very fair, very idealistic.

    Yes, I suppose it's not hard to believe in theory perhaps or in actuality especially if you happen to have personally met each judge individually, or served as a judge yourself.
    Have you met every judge individually? Have you served as a judge yourself? The fact that I have not doesn't make your conceptualization of the world the correct one.

    And I am not being idealistic. I am stating what I have observed over more than 20 years of being actively involved in skating. If over that time I had seen that the majority of judges were crooked, biased, greedy or self-serving, I would be saying exactly that.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  9. #29
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    ^^ Well, I suppose your conceptualizations and ideals are on target, even if you seem a tad grumpy.

    ITA, judges are human too and deserve some love and respect, especially those in the majority who are not "bad apples."

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Surely, judges should not be in the business of supporting any particular skater, but judging fairly what they see in front of them?
    I took that to mean that judges would provide feedback to skaters and give clinics/presentations.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-19-2013 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    even if you seem a tad grumpy.
    And your reason for stating this is....?
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visaliakid View Post
    I find this argument against Ron Pfenning to be a non-starter. The ISU cannot and should not have any say as to the person elected as President of any of it's member federations/associations. U.S. Figure Skating elected presidents are not often/if seldom the ISU Representative to the council. The current USFS representative to the ISU is not President Pat St. Peter. The idea that Ron Pfenning could not successfully lead the USFS in it's National programs and goals because he no longer is a member of any standing within the ISU, is simply preposterous!
    As a matter of fact the President of an ISU Federation is required to interface with the ISU and other Federations constantly. A president, who's actions brought sanctions against himself and led others to the same fate will never be recieved and respected by the organizations of International Skating. There are constant activities that need a Federation President's involment. A Congress is only one periodic meeting and even at that meeting a Federation President is always expected to attend.
    Morry Stillwell

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    As a matter of fact the President of an ISU Federation is required to interface with the ISU and other Federations constantly. A president, who's actions brought sanctions against himself and led others to the same fate will never be recieved and respected by the organizations of International Skating. There are constant activities that need a Federation President's involment. A Congress is only one periodic meeting and even at that meeting a Federation President is always expected to attend.
    Really? What about Didier G? Seems to be functioning as a president. Got a worlds last year. Runs a GP event. One can have opinions about him but your black and white statement is not the case.

  14. #34
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    Sort of hilarious that officials like Didier (and others) implicated in crooked dealings, or actually sanctioned, are A-Ok but someone who tried to reform a sport that desperately needed it is supposedly not.

    Good luck, Ron. Even if you win, in dealing with the ISU you'll be the good girl in a brothel.
    Last edited by PRlady; 06-21-2013 at 05:40 PM.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  15. #35
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    ^^ This!

    ITA with your posts, Mont and PRlady. I'd add that Ron would be the good guy in a Wall Street boardroom or a den of politicians.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mont View Post
    Really? What about Didier G? Seems to be functioning as a president. Got a worlds last year. Runs a GP event. One can have opinions about him but your black and white statement is not the case.
    Perhaps it would be better if you recognized that Didier was suspended for a specific length of time, served his penalty and resumed his normal place within the ISU as President of his Federation.

    Pfenning is banned for life from ISU involvment.
    Last edited by Morry Stillwell; 06-24-2013 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Spelling!!!
    Morry Stillwell

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Perhaps it would be better if you recognized that Didier was suspended for a specific length of time, served his penalty and resumed his normal place within the ISU as President of his Federation.

    Pfenning is banned for life from ISU involvment.
    And this in two sentences illustrates without need for further comment what is wrong with the ISU. And to see this as a defence of the situation is, well, remarkable.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Could be in the same way that fans support their local team, that skating club members -- including judges, by participation in their own and other clubs' competitions -- support their club members. Whereas disdaining the competitions as less important than staying home and playing politics would be considered lack of support.
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I took that to mean that judges would provide feedback to skaters and give clinics/presentations.
    Mr. Pfenning was very specific that it was on the ISU circuit of competitions internationally, not domestic competitions. Judges are not supposed to be in contact with skaters while these events are in progress never mind having the time to give clinics/presentations. It is extremely problematic/unethical to openly suggest that any nation's judges should be lobbying on behalf of skaters from their own country.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  19. #39

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    Re-posting in this relevant thread:
    Mr. Wright's statement can be viewed on Pfenning's candidate FB page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Run-R...99834056751501
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Broom.new.sweep.

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