Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 42
  1. #21

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock2 View Post
    Holy smokes. So the boy COULD skate with transitions. Totally impressed.
    The 6.0 system did not reward transitions much (so most skaters did not invest a lot in those); landing difficult jumps was the most important thing, but Petrenko had it all- the jumps, spins, strong basic skating skills, flair, and presence on the ice. He had versatility too. He could skate an emotional 'Tosca' as well as a fun number like the life-size doll as a prop. I loved his skate to Brian Adams' 'if you really love a woman' at Sergei's memorial.

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post


    Petrenko is Ukrainian, not Russian.




    One of my all-time favorite Viktor Petrenko performances is when he starred as Clara's godfather Herr Drosselmeier in "Nutcracker on Ice" starring Oksana Baiul.
    In his first two Olympics he skated for the USSR (1988) and the former USSR's team (1992), so in a way he did grow up under the Russian influence. He could have easily moved to Moscow to take advantage of the superior facilities there, after his 1988 Olympic bronze, but he stayed in Odessa. So I don't think he really feels indebted to Russia in any way. He could still coach a Russian male skater, just as he could coach an American skater. I don't know of any strong contenders from Ukraine at this point.

    In 1994 he skated for Ukraine, along with Oksana Baiul. I did not particularly care for the Nutcracker on ice; it was OK. Viktor was still pretty good in it.

  3. #23

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33055
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
    The music is from the (Soviet) ballet the Flames of Paris, by Boris Asafiev http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flames_of_Paris

    ETA: Here's a clip of the music in the ballet with Natalia Osipova and Ivan Vasiliev: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slhOR2mqbgM
    Thanks for posting that clip. Great to see where it came from.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    2,683
    vCash
    400
    Rep Power
    8867
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    Petrenko is Ukrainian, not Russian.
    Sorry!
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    The 6.0 system did not reward transitions much (so most skaters did not invest a lot in those); landing difficult jumps was the most important thing, but Petrenko had it all- the jumps, spins, strong basic skating skills, flair, and presence on the ice. He had versatility too. He could skate an emotional 'Tosca' as well as a fun number like the life-size doll as a prop. I loved his skate to Brian Adams' 'if you really love a woman' at Sergei's memorial.
    The fact is that he was able to skate perfect programs with transitions. And other skaters tried so much more demanding programs (Petr Barna had a lot of choreo, transitions...). So, that's a shame that someone as talented as Petrenko didn't care about skating !

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,722
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    The fact is that he was able to skate perfect programs with transitions. And other skaters tried so much more demanding programs (Petr Barna had a lot of choreo, transitions...). So, that's a shame that someone as talented as Petrenko didn't care about skating !
    I don't think that not including a lot of transitions under a system that did not rewards them equals "did not care about skating". Actually, even if the system does reward transitions, it doesn't mean that this should be the top priority for all skaters or the main method of evaluating their merit. There is more to skating than transitions (sometimes I feel like I should have that as auto-text).

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I don't think that not including a lot of transitions under a system that did not rewards them equals "did not care about skating". Actually, even if the system does reward transitions, it doesn't mean that this should be the top priority for all skaters or the main method of evaluating their merit. There is more to skating than transitions (sometimes I feel like I should have that as auto-text).
    I agree that transition is not everything. And I guess it depends on what we like in skating. But really, cross-over from one jump to another is not skating to me.

  8. #28

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,722
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I agree that transition is not everything. And I guess it depends on what we like in skating. But really, cross-over from one jump to another is not skating to me.
    I'd rather watch Elena Berezhnaya do crossovers than many skaters do whatever transitions Lori Nichol/David Wilson/whoever has prescribed.

    Anyway, nothing but crossovers would indeed be bad, but even the most 6.0ish of skaters don't do that. Also, I think some skaters get overly cute with their TR and element entries/exits and try to do too much, and the quality of the elements and the programs can suffer from it. If a skaters is super-focused on packing in linking footwork, it can distract them from performing and interpreting the music, IMO - and that's assuming those transitions would have worked with the music to begin with, which isn't always the case. Skating isn't just a technical sport, and I think we can all agree that those things do matter.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Age
    33
    Posts
    4,868
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    4947
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    The fact is that he was able to skate perfect programs with transitions. And other skaters tried so much more demanding programs (Petr Barna had a lot of choreo, transitions...). So, that's a shame that someone as talented as Petrenko didn't care about skating !
    I have to wonder if Petrenko's lack of transitions was part of what cost him the 1991 World title...even if Browning had an advantage on the jumps, Petrenko clearly had a massive advantage on carriage, line, basic skating, etc. But even in 1991, before Browning had really started developing into an artistic skater, his programs were chock full of transitions. Petrenko's empty programs particularly stuck out there - really too bad he didn't continue in the vein of this program.

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33055
    Petrenko's problem was a lack of fitness. His programs just seemed to fizzle out at the end. That is probably what cost him the 91 World title.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  11. #31

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Petrenko's problem was a lack of fitness. His programs just seemed to fizzle out at the end. That is probably what cost him the 91 World title.
    Generally, that was true but not at the 91 worlds. He made just one mistake in his 91 worlds LP (on 3flip). IIRC he did two 3A's in the program (one in combination, but not a 3-3). He did not have a 3-3 in that performance. Browning had at least one, possibly two (I will have to see the tape). Browning was not a stylistic skater, and at that time he had only jumps. Viktor was a much better interpreter of the music at that time. Even with one mistake, Viktor's performance was better than Kurt's. IMO being the reigning world champ helped Kurt at that time. Even Kurt looked shocked when he found out that he had won.

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Generally, that was true but not at the 91 worlds. He made just one mistake in his 91 worlds LP (on 3flip). IIRC he did two 3A's in the program (one in combination, but not a 3-3). He did not have a 3-3 in that performance. Browning had at least one, possibly two (I will have to see the tape). Browning was not a stylistic skater, and at that time he had only jumps. Viktor was a much better interpreter of the music at that time. Even with one mistake, Viktor's performance was better than Kurt's. IMO being the reigning world champ helped Kurt at that time. Even Kurt looked shocked when he found out that he had won.
    Kurt had three 3/3 combos (3A/3T, 3S/3L and 3F/3T) ! But I don't know how judges counted them, since he had 4 combos and three 3Toe in the program !

  13. #33

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I have to wonder if Petrenko's lack of transitions was part of what cost him the 1991 World title...even if Browning had an advantage on the jumps, Petrenko clearly had a massive advantage on carriage, line, basic skating, etc. But even in 1991, before Browning had really started developing into an artistic skater, his programs were chock full of transitions. Petrenko's empty programs particularly stuck out there - really too bad he didn't continue in the vein of this program.
    Once again, the 6.0 system did not care about transitions. It was nice if a skater had those, but it was not as important as landing the jumps, and not messing up something else. The musical interpretation had a lot of weight under the 6.0, so packing a lot of transitions was not going to get the skaters marks. Instead, typically they ended up making mistakes on the jumps and not win. Viktor's goal was always to win, not just be a maverick. His musical interpretation often came from body movements; he had a very expressive body. Skaters like Matt Savoie were ahead of their times in transitions, but they were not respected by the judges because they could not land their jumps consistently. The two judging systems are different, and we cannot use rules of one to another era in skating. As far as artistry goes, I still prefer the 6.0 because those programs actually expressed the music, and multiple falls were punished because of the interruption in the interpretation.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,477
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Kurt had three 3/3 combos (3A/3T, 3S/3L and 3F/3T) ! But I don't know how judges counted them, since he had 4 combos and three 3Toe in the program !
    I don't believe there was a limit on combinations done back then, but I could be wrong. The third 3T probably (should have) resulted in a 0.1 deduction, though.

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,477
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    As far as artistry goes, I still prefer the 6.0 because those programs actually expressed the music, and multiple falls were punished because of the interruption in the interpretation.
    I don't agree. If anything, we often saw the 'big names' resorted up to high second marks if they were to falter technically, especially in the short program.

  16. #36

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Once again, the 6.0 system did not care about transitions. It was nice if a skater had those, but it was not as important as landing the jumps, and not messing up something else.
    The rules at the time did not give explicit guidelines on how to consider transitions, which were often referred to as "in-betweens."

    But I think the oral tradition in the judging community did value skills demonstrated between the jumps and spins. Some judges cared more than others, or had different aspects of the in-between skating that they cared most about. It just wasn't codified and so was inconsistently applied.

    I do think Browning got a lot of credit for what he did throughout his programs aside from the elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
    I don't agree. If anything, we often saw the 'big names' resorted up to high second marks if they were to falter technically, especially in the short program.
    Yes. Well, of course, the presentation mark for the short program was usually in line with what the required elements mark would have been without the errors (0.1 or 0.2 higher or lower if the skater was particularly strong or weak on presentation skills), and the deductions only needed to be taken from the first mark. The errors would have to be pretty disruptive for the second mark to be lowered much from where it would have been without errors.

  17. #37

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    Yes. Well, of course, the presentation mark for the short program was usually in line with what the required elements mark would have been without the errors (0.1 or 0.2 higher or lower if the skater was particularly strong or weak on presentation skills), and the deductions only needed to be taken from the first mark. The errors would have to be pretty disruptive for the second mark to be lowered much from where it would have been without errors.
    That has not changed even now. Top skaters like Chan can have multiple falls and still get high PCS- equivalent of the presentation/artistic marks in the past. In the 6.0 at least falls in the LP caused lower presentation marks; not so under COP.

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,477
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    That has not changed even now. Top skaters like Chan can have multiple falls and still get high PCS- equivalent of the presentation/artistic marks in the past. In the 6.0 at least falls in the LP caused lower presentation marks; not so under COP.
    This argument always comes up, especially with Chan. But looking back to 6.0, do you really think that? I don't. More often than not, the second mark was used to put the skater in the position that the judge wanted the skater. While it was more obvious in the short program (as I said before), I think the same practice happened often in the free skate.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sending positive thoughts to Mirai..
    Posts
    3,714
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    In his first two Olympics he skated for the USSR (1988) and the former USSR's team (1992), so in a way he did grow up under the Russian influence. He could have easily moved to Moscow to take advantage of the superior facilities there, after his 1988 Olympic bronze, but he stayed in Odessa. So I don't think he really feels indebted to Russia in any way. He could still coach a Russian male skater, just as he could coach an American skater. I don't know of any strong contenders from Ukraine at this point.

    In 1994 he skated for Ukraine, along with Oksana Baiul. I did not particularly care for the Nutcracker on ice; it was OK. Viktor was still pretty good in it.
    Yes, I'm aware that Petrenko was raised under the Soviet system, etc. That doesn't make him Russian. That's what I was pointing out to the other poster in case they were thinking he was from Russia rather than Ukraine which is a whole other country.

    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Sorry!
    No worries!

  20. #40

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,781
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    19086
    Delete: Already said
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-11-2013 at 05:59 PM.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •