Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 158
  1. #81
    Official FSU Alte Kacher
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Looking through my D7100 viewfinder
    Posts
    11,927
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5302
    There are some parts of VA where "house" sounds like "hoos" rather like some of the Maritime provinces pronounce it, i.e, The "ou" pronounced "oo." CT has its pockets of odd pronunciations. Just below Hartford on I84 is New Bri'an (full glottal stop). I grew up in western CT and I've heard the state name pronounced, "Conne'cut." Now I'm living in ME and that's a whole 'nother thing, Deah.
    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity”– MLK

  2. #82
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    855
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    How on earth can there be a different between cot and caught?
    I'm from Arkansas, and there's definitely a difference. For the life of me though, I can't figure out how I'd spell the way we pronounce "caught." Maybe "cawt" comes close if you drag it out.

  3. #83
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Age
    24
    Posts
    9,017
    vCash
    1529
    Rep Power
    0
    I'll have to google some of this stuff and see if I can find examples

    I always did something weird, which I got from my mother. She doesn't say the 'g' after the letter 'n' in a lot of words, like in 'singing', both g's are not pronounced at all. She does pronounce very obvious ones like in 'wrong' but in a large percentage of words with 'ng' she doesn't pronounce the 'g'. Therefore, neither did I, and my dad never apparently picked up on it to correct me so I honestly thought the 'g' after 'n' was silent in most words until I went to college, at which point people started pointing it out and I was horrendously embarrassed. I figured out it was her when I was telling her about how embarrassed and confused I was by the fact that I somehow missed that 'g' after n isn't silent, and she said "But it is silent."

    I have no idea if this is just some weird thing my mother picked up or what. I've worked pretty hard to fix this in the past 5 or so years but I still catch myself sometimes. Has anyone ever heard of this before?

  4. #84

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,136
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2203
    michiruwater, I've heard this many times in the Midwest. You're from Michigan, right? There's an interesting Wikipedia article on "Yooper dialect" on this form of North Central American English. One of the features referenced is the substitution of een for ing.

  5. #85
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    37,708
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    15602
    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    I'll have to google some of this stuff and see if I can find examples

    I always did something weird, which I got from my mother. She doesn't say the 'g' after the letter 'n' in a lot of words, like in 'singing', both g's are not pronounced at all. She does pronounce very obvious ones like in 'wrong' but in a large percentage of words with 'ng' she doesn't pronounce the 'g'. Therefore, neither did I, and my dad never apparently picked up on it to correct me so I honestly thought the 'g' after 'n' was silent in most words until I went to college, at which point people started pointing it out and I was horrendously embarrassed. I figured out it was her when I was telling her about how embarrassed and confused I was by the fact that I somehow missed that 'g' after n isn't silent, and she said "But it is silent."

    I have no idea if this is just some weird thing my mother picked up or what. I've worked pretty hard to fix this in the past 5 or so years but I still catch myself sometimes. Has anyone ever heard of this before?
    You mean saying something like "singin'" instead of "singing?" Not only is this common (all English speakers do it to some degree) but your mom is not entirely incorrect.

    What is "g-dropping"? The term comes from the conventional orthography: -ing is written as -in', as in she's openin' the door.

    In fact, there is no "g" involved at all, except in the spelling. Final -ng (in English spelling) stands for a velar nasal, which is written in the International Phonetic Alphabet as an "n" with a hook on its right leg: [ŋ], a symbol called "eng." The final -n' in spellings like openin' stands for a coronal nasal, which is written in IPA with an ordinary "n": [n]. In IPA, opening is written as [ˈopənɪŋ], while openin' is written as [ˈopənɪn]. The only difference in pronunciation is whether the final nasal consonant is velar (made with the body of the tongue pressed against the soft palate) or coronal (made with the blade of the tongue pressed against the ridge behind the front teeth).

    Thus is "g-dropping" nothing is ever really dropped -- it's just a question of where you put your tongue at the end of the word.

    Not all words ending in [ŋ] are candidates for g-dropping. English doesn't have a general alternation between final velar and coronal nasals: boomerang does not become boomeran', and ring does not become rin'. We are only talking about unstressed final -ing at the ends of words. In some dialects, g-dropping applies only to the inflectional suffix -ing (as in present participles such as trying), and not in words such as wedding or morning.

    Historically, g-dropping is actually a more conservative pattern. The English present participle suffix was originally pronounced with a coronal, not a velar nasal: in early middle English, this inflection was -inde or -ende. There was a derivational ending -ung for making nouns out of verbs, which produced words like present-day "building." These eventually merged into the modern -ing suffix. In 19th- and early 20th-century England, the g-dropping pattern (which really was the "not g-adding pattern") marked the rural aristrocracy as well as the lower classes. Thus this passage from John Galsworthy's 1931 novel Maid in Waiting:

    'Where on earth did Aunt Em learn to drop her g's?'
    'Father told me once that she was a school where an undropped "g" was worse than a dropped "h". They were bringin' in a country fashion then, huntin' people, you know.'

    The velar pronunciation, a middle-class innovation a couple of hundred years ago, has since become the norm for most educated speakers. Note, by the way, note that this is exactly the type of change that many prescriptivist language mavens rail against -- an innovation that systematically blurs a distinction between two formerly separate categories of words. Some g-dropping speakers cleanly maintain the old distinction -- for my wife, who is from Texas, tryin' or readin' are normal, but weddin' or buildin' are completely wrong.

    Today, nearly all English speakers drop g's sometimes, but in a given speech community, the proportion varies systematically depending on formality, social class, sex, and other variables as well.


    http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/langu...es/000878.html

    These threads are always to me; people think so many things are "incorrect" when they are really just natural developments of language. It's always a good reminder that one of the main reasons that grammar rules and such exist is to enforce class differences.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  6. #86
    aspiring tri-national
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    in flight
    Posts
    20,087
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15299
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    These threads are always to me; people think so many things are "incorrect" when they are really just natural developments of language. It's always a good reminder that one of the main reasons that grammar rules and such exist is to enforce class differences.
    Yikes. That is really resonating right now. Last night I cooked dinner for the new guy I'm seeing. He actually asked me where I had learned to speak the Queen's English so well. I was embarrassed. I'm a professional communicator and I have an instinct for language -- and it's a good thing, since I suck at math, spatial relations, athletics, organization and almost everything else.

    This speaker of the Queen's English grew up in a rowhouse in Philadelphia and read a lot of books as a child and teenager. Some people naturally transmute what they read into how they speak. That's all I could come up with (note dangling participle, Prancer). Nobody had ever quite put it like that to me before. I even told him that given my cultural tastes I'm a liberal redneck, so there's nothing to be assumed from my speech patterns.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  7. #87
    Tinami 2012
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    11,406
    vCash
    1000
    Rep Power
    4097
    Love it! Written by my Ling 1 professor, with a shout out to my Sociolinguistics professor (who changed my life, honestly). Memories .

  8. #88
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    37,708
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    15602
    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    I even told him that given my cultural tastes I'm a liberal redneck, so there's nothing to be assumed from my speech patterns.
    But there is. Most of us judge others by how they speak, and Americans don't usually consider this snobbery because we have a blind spot to such things where education is concerned. Most of us don't consider it at all okay to look down on people who are of a lower (or higher--this is a factor as well) economic class, but we are quite happy to look down on accents and dialects because we consider those a matter of education or lack thereof. That's one reason you've worked to rid yourself of that Philly accent--because there are negative connotations to having one. Our accents immediately put us into a particular slot for other people--and dialects even more so. For many people, nothing that Jimmy Carter ever did, for good or ill, will ever make up for his pronunciation of "nuclear."

    I thought linguistics was the most boring subject in the English major spectrum (well, okay, maybe it was second to lit crit), but the one thing I found interesting was how language was and is used to suppress the lower classes. Some of our more nonsensical grammar rules were adopted deliberately to keep the great unwashed from sneaking in where they don't belong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis View Post
    Love it! Written by my Ling 1 professor, with a shout out to my Sociolinguistics professor (who changed my life, honestly). Memories .
    I wondered when I saw the URL.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  9. #89

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,136
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2203
    Prancer, with great trepidation and full-body armor, I partially disagree with the claim that grammar rules exist to enforce class distinctions. I think that accents and grammar reflect the speech patterns of different regions of the country and different cultural groups within the country, but can these differences be equated with class distinctions? Does an implied speech hierarchy exist in the United States? Maybe, I could queasily accept the idea of grammar rules reinforcing (but not enforcing) prejudices involved in class differences. If we all spoke in the same way, the English language would not be nearly as much fun.

    Prancer P.S.- I wrote this post before your 8:50 post. I'm a slow poster. I understand your perspective a bit better now, but I still think that the word enforce is too strong a claim for me.
    Last edited by JJH; 06-10-2013 at 03:22 AM.

  10. #90
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    37,708
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    15602
    Quote Originally Posted by JJH View Post
    Prancer, with great trepidation and full-body armor, I partially disagree with the claim that grammar rules exist to enforce class distinctions. I think that accents and grammar reflect the speech patterns of different regions of the country and different cultural groups within the country, but can these differences be equated with class distinctions? Does an implied speech hierarchy exist in the United States? Maybe, I could queasily accept the idea of grammar rules reinforcing (but not enforcing) prejudices involved in class differences. If we all spoke in the same way, the English language would not be nearly as much fun.

    Prancer P.S.- I wrote this post before your 8:50 post. I'm a slow poster. I understand your perspective a bit better now, but I still think that the word enforce is too strong a claim for me.
    So you don't think that potential employees are rejected out of hand by employers because of grammatical and dialectical language use? Or that careers are limited by grammatical and dialectical language use? Or that social opportunities are limited by grammatical and dialectical language use?
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  11. #91

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,136
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2203
    I think this is a complex issue with numerous variables. Does anybody have any studies/statistics that address job discrimination as a function of language? What jobs are the most vulnerable to this type of discrimination? Would discrimination occur if the only variable was regional accent without any grammatical differences? Would an English teacher with a strong Tennessee accent have difficulties being hired in a Bronx school? Would an English teacher with a strong Bronx accent have difficulties in being hired in a Tennessee school? Is this class discrimination or regional discrimination? Do we, as a society, only want to work with people who sound just like us?

  12. #92
    aspiring tri-national
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    in flight
    Posts
    20,087
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15299
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    So you don't think that potential employees are rejected out of hand by employers because of grammatical and dialectical language use? Or that careers are limited by grammatical and dialectical language use? Or that social opportunities are limited by grammatical and dialectical language use?
    Of c,ourse bad grammar and language skills in general are going to penalize someone. I'm not sure michiru is voing to have trouble because of mary and merry, though and i hated my accent because to me it sounds ugly.

    Pardon bad lanbuage skills here due to nook keyboard!
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  13. #93

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Refusing to perform on demand
    Posts
    14,447
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1779
    The nook, the great equalizer!
    Creating drama!

  14. #94
    engaged to dupa
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Heaven for climate, Hell for company.
    Posts
    18,917
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1083
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffisjeff View Post
    The nook, the great equalizer!
    Gives us all bad language skills.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  15. #95
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    37,708
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    15602
    Quote Originally Posted by JJH View Post
    I think this is a complex issue with numerous variables.
    Do you know of any topic involving language that isn't?

    But yes, studies have been done on the subject of accent and job discrimination. One sample:

    These results are consistent with the similarity-attraction hypothesis, which states that demographic variables will impact judgments to the extent to which they make the decision-maker view the applicant as similar or dissimilar. The ability of accent to trigger bias highlights the importance of considering the full array of characteristics that can lead to discrimination in employment settings. Research on employment discrimination has traditionally focused on visual cues such as gender and ethnicity, but in an interview situation, the way the applicant speaks is also important.

    Deprez-Sims, Anne-Sophie, and Scott B. Morris. "Accents In The Workplace: Their Effects During A Job Interview." International Journal Of Psychology 45.6 (2010): 417-426. Business Source Complete. Web. 10 June 2013.

    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Of c,ourse bad grammar and language skills in general are going to penalize someone. I'm not sure michiru is voing to have trouble because of mary and merry, though
    For that? No, probably not.

    But let's say that michiru used an African-American dialect. Or Appalachian. I'm not even talking about poor grammar, just accent and dialect.

    Since I am most familiar with my own accent, I'll use it as an example. Anyone with a trained ear will have me pegged as soon as I open my mouth--I am a southwestern Ohioan of Scots-Irish ancestry whose parents were from Kentucky. It's a specific accent that is common here but not found elsewhere, and is not the only accent in this area. Linguists at OSU have done studies in which panels of untrained people identify characteristics of speakers they hear on audio tape. My accent is invariably identified rural, uneducated, and working class. You think this has never been an issue?

    Southern accents are often described as charming--soft and easy on the ear. But:

    Verbal communication provides explicit cues about groups and individuals (Lambert, Hodgson, Gardner, & Fillenbaum, 1960). Accented speech reflects individuals' characteristics such as race, biological sex, social class, and education and functions to categorize individuals according to group membership from which stereotyped evaluations may arise (Riches & Foddy, 1989). Specifically, regional dialects elicit evaluative judgments based on preconceived stereotypes associated with a geographical region (Schenck-Hamlin, 1978). The distinctiveness of the Southern region, due in part to perceptions of its nonstandard dialect, has been consistently established in linguistic and folk dialectology research (Fridland, 2008; Fridland & Bartlett, 2006; Preston, 1993). Based on these findings, the current study evaluated the effect of the Southern accent on perceptions of speaker competency. Regional accent (i.e., Southern and neutral1) was systematically varied in audio taped instructions presented to participants. We expected that participants would evaluate the neutral speaker's abilities more positively than the Southerner. As predicted, participants viewed the neutral accented speaker as more competent (e.g., grammatically correct, effective instructor, professional manner) than the Southerner.'

    Kelsey N. Henry, et al. "Perceptions Of Competency As A Function Of Accent." Psi Chi Journal Of Psychological Research 18.1 (2013): 27-32. Academic Search Complete. Web. 10 June 2013.

    And it's not just Southerners:

    Our review of the published literature uncovered 20 studies that have compared the effects of standard accents (i.e., the accepted accent of the majority population) versus non-standard accents (i.e., accents that are considered foreign or spoken by minorities) on evaluations about the speakers. These 20 studies yielded 116 independent effect sizes on an array of characteristics that were selected by the original researchers. We classified each of the characteristics as belonging to one of three domains that have been traditionally discussed in this area, namely status (e.g., intelligence, social class), solidarity (trustworthiness, in-group-out-group member), and dynamism (level of activity and liveliness). The effect was particularly strong when American Network accented speakers were compared with non-standard-accented speakers. These results underscore prior research showing that speakers' accents have powerful effects on how others perceive them.

    Howard Giles, et al. "A Meta-Analysis Of The Effects Of Speakers' Accents On Interpersonal Evaluations." European Journal Of Social Psychology 42.1 (2012): 120-133. Academic Search Complete. Web. 10 June 2013.

    There are multitudes of studies showing that people make a lot of assumptions based on accent (just accent at this point, not grammar). There is even a well-established theory about this--accent prestige theory. And you don't think this has an effect on people's careers and access to social communities?
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  16. #96
    aspiring tri-national
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    in flight
    Posts
    20,087
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15299
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    There are multitudes of studies showing that people make a lot of assumptions based on accent (just accent at this point, not grammar). There is even a well-established theory about this--accent prestige theory. And you don't think this has an effect on people's careers and access to social communities?
    I am sure that's true, Prancer. And in every hierarchical society, not just ours. I'm sure there is Muscovite-educated-Russian which trumps Chechen-accented Russian in the job sweepstakes, Parisian French that looks down on Alsatian accents and so on. There are accents that are considered funny and lovable (the Boston accents on "Cheers") and those that are considered laughably backwards, notably "hillbilly" in the U.S.

    And being human we're never going to separate out class and other prejudices from our evaluation of people. I always remember my boss at the big PR/advertising firm back in 1988 when we were hiring for a junior level position. The young woman who was far and away the best qualified was also a good thirty pounds overweight and wearing, in her twenties, orthodontic braces. My boss actually said to me that we are in the image business and she is not what the client is going to expect. Oh, and she also had a border-state Southern accent. I insisted on hiring her.

    Out of everyone I worked with then she went on to the biggest success, running communications for the DNC and presidential campaigns eventually. Her teeth are straight but you know what, she still struggles with her weight and is often very heavy on camera. The accent has mellowed into standard Washington politico-speak diction. I would say that in the list of things she had to overcome to get her foot on the ladder, her accent was much less a problem than her appearance....
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  17. #97
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Age
    24
    Posts
    9,017
    vCash
    1529
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by JJH View Post
    michiruwater, I've heard this many times in the Midwest. You're from Michigan, right? There's an interesting Wikipedia article on "Yooper dialect" on this form of North Central American English. One of the features referenced is the substitution of een for ing.
    That is exactly what my mom and I do. For the most part I do not have a Yooper accent - my father is from Maine and my mother's Yooper accent is pretty slight - but of course there are some things I've probably picked up that I am totally unaware I've picked up! Really strong Yooper accents drive me bonkers.

    And thank you to Prancer as well, that was really, really interesting to read!

  18. #98
    Prick Admin
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Having a kiki
    Posts
    41,882
    vCash
    506
    Rep Power
    12373
    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Yikes. That is really resonating right now. Last night I cooked dinner for the new guy I'm seeing. He actually asked me where I had learned to speak the Queen's English so well. I was embarrassed. I'm a professional communicator and I have an instinct for language -- and it's a good thing, since I suck at math, spatial relations, athletics, organization and almost everything else.

    This speaker of the Queen's English grew up in a rowhouse in Philadelphia and read a lot of books as a child and teenager. Some people naturally transmute what they read into how they speak. That's all I could come up with (note dangling participle, Prancer). Nobody had ever quite put it like that to me before. I even told him that given my cultural tastes I'm a liberal redneck, so there's nothing to be assumed from my speech patterns.
    So the dude thought you spoke like an English person?

    You're well-spoken, but clearly a well-spoken American. I'd say he needs to get his hearing checked.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  19. #99
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Age
    24
    Posts
    9,017
    vCash
    1529
    Rep Power
    0
    I've been asked if I'm British loads of time. I just tell them I enunciate better than most Americans but I'm still not sure what it is, exactly, about my speech that gives off this impression. I always imagine someone who's actually English just laughing their ass off if they were present for the conversation.

  20. #100

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,136
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2203
    Prancer, thank you so much for the references. (The sad thing is we likely have some of these journals in dust-gathering stacks all over the house.) I'm disappointed to find that accent alone has such a significant negative impact. My somewhat inarticulate question continues to be, though, how can preferential attitudes toward speakers with the same regional accent and less favorable attitudes with a different regional accent be factored out of the equation? I'm not convinced that the only thing going on is class-discrimination. How would a group from New Orleans or Houston or Memphis evaluate the trustworthiness or professionalism of speakers of each of their own southern dialects versus other southern dialects versus so-called "neutral" speakers versus Bronx or Brooklyn or Maine or Bostonian accents?

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •