View Poll Results: 88 Olympics- who deserved overall gold

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  • Manley

    13 27.08%
  • Witt

    11 22.92%
  • Ito

    8 16.67%
  • Thomas

    6 12.50%
  • Orser

    10 20.83%
  • Boitano

    29 60.42%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
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    88 Olympics ladies and men, who deserved gold overall

    There was much debate at the 88 Olympic results. Who deserved gold overall for the ladies or men. For men it would be between Orser and Boitano, and for women between Witt, Manley, and maybe Ito if you believe she was underplaced in figures or something.

  2. #2
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    Thomas is also a possibility if people think she deserved a bigger lead on Witt and Manley going into the final free skate.

  3. #3
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    Watching the performances again these were my placements:

    Short program- 1. Trenary, 2. Thomas, 3. Ito, 4. Kadavy, 5. Witt, 6. Manley
    Long program- 1. Ito, 2. Manley, 3. Trenary, 4. Witt, 5. Thomas

    With the figures results what would the final results in this case have been?

  4. #4

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    I will always champion Ito because she had the most Olympic performance. However, based on the 3 phase competition format, I think Manley probably should have won despite being preset for the bronze.

    Boitano and Orser were very close, but Boitano was the most obvious choice.

  5. #5
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    I voted for both Manley and Thomas. Manley deserved the gold with how the performances came out, but had Thomas won the figures and short program as she should have, and Manley and Witt been much lower in the short program as they should have, she probably would have been more relaxed and done a decent final free skate (good enough for 2nd or 3rd) and the gold easily.

    I also have no doubt Witt was overscored and overplaced in figures as she often was. The footage I saw of her Calgary figures were a joke, and I would bet good money no way in hell did she deserve to be over people like Trenary and Leistner. I bet her figures were in reality no better than Ito's 10th placed ones.

    For the men I voted for Boitano. I badly wanted Orser to win but Boitano simply was better that night in the final free program, and IMO shouldnt have been as close as it was. It pains me Orser ended up with only 1 amateur major title to Boitano's 3 though as I really feel Orser was the better skater overall still.

  6. #6
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    What is strange is Witts performances in figures here. She was never great in figures but around 1983-1984 she started to show good results there. What exactly were the cause of her demise in figures (performance wise) in Calgary ?
    I agree Manley and Witt were overmarked in the SP, but Thomas was also in her LP. I'd still give it to Manley, but Ito stole the show.

  7. #7
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    Witt's skating in general in 88 was way off. Calgary was the only time she made a 4 triple LP and even that one wasnt great. Her triple salchows were suddenly small, crooked, and inconsistent which they had never been before. Her Carmen program wasnt great, she seemed to be skating much slower than usual. I guess her being weaker in figures that year just tied in with where she was in her career. She was already on decline after hitting her all time peak in the 87 Worlds LP which she had gradually built too from years of dominance. Luckily she had a huge reputation for herself in the sport by then.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    What is strange is Witts performances in figures here. She was never great in figures but around 1983-1984 she started to show good results there. What exactly were the cause of her demise in figures (performance wise) in Calgary ?
    I don't consider 3rd in figures a demise.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Watching the performances again these were my placements:

    Short program- 1. Trenary, 2. Thomas, 3. Ito, 4. Kadavy, 5. Witt, 6. Manley
    Long program- 1. Ito, 2. Manley, 3. Trenary, 4. Witt, 5. Thomas

    With the figures results what would the final results in this case have been?
    Leaving the figures placements alone (maybe not the best idea*, but....) then the results would have been (nb the math was done in a hurry, but I think it's right)

    1. Trenary
    2. Manley
    3. Thomas
    4. Witt
    5. Ito

    *If you listen between the lines at her commentary, Fleming thought that Witt was held up in figures.

  10. #10
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    Witt, Boitano

  11. #11
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    Ladies: Katarina appears to have been over marked in the figures. Trenary and Leistner were under marked. The judges knew that if KW was placed behind Ivanova, Thomas, Trenary, Leistner, Manley and even Cadavy, she would not win with only 2 different triples and a weak jump combination in the SP. Thomas was undermarked in the SP. Ito, Jill and Cadavy were undermarked in the SP, and KW was over marked in the SP. KW was gifted placement in the figures and short program, and should have been 4th or 5th going into the long. IMHO.

    Men: Boitano deserved to win. I think Orser was over marked on all his presentation marks, and technically in the jumps, Boitano did more 3axels, a 3-3, more flips and he made no mistakes while being strong all the way through both programs. Orser watered down, made a couple of errors and got tired. The placements seem fine.

  12. #12
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    Definitely Boitano in the men competition.
    But definitely not Witt in the ladies competition. I like many Katarina Witt's programs and performances, but her Carmen is my least favorite program of hers, and she was really outskated by Ito in the LP. I don't know who would have been the overall winner, but Witt was overscored in Calgary, way too much.

  13. #13
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    Althought I thought she deserved the overall gold breaking down the results of the 3 program system, after reading Manley's book I am so glad she didnt. She really became such a bitter and poor me individual in her post amateur skating life. I dont thinks he would have been a good rep of the sport as Olympic Champion at all. The worst thing about her book was her ad nauseum poor me tale of her relationship with her ex boyfriend Scott Gross. If someone is that horrible to you (supposably) and you keep going back to them for 9 years dont expect people to feel sorry for you.

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    Boitano v. Orser - Boitano; Spot on in the SP, and cleaner w/ more technical difficulty than Orser in the LP. His 2nd mark had improved markedly over the course of time culminating in those programs at Calgary.

    Ladies really is more of a muddle. Probably Manley. Witt was most likely over-marked in the Figures and I would've had Witt and Manley roughly equal in the SP, 4th and 5th behind Ito, Thomas and Kadavy. Which meant that Manley merely out-skating Witt in the LP would've sealed the deal. Thomas made too many mistakes in the LP to be crowned Olympic champion.

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    Wrong thread

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Witt's skating in general in 88 was way off. Calgary was the only time she made a 4 triple LP and even that one wasnt great. Her triple salchows were suddenly small, crooked, and inconsistent which they had never been before. Her Carmen program wasnt great, she seemed to be skating much slower than usual. I guess her being weaker in figures that year just tied in with where she was in her career. She was already on decline after hitting her all time peak in the 87 Worlds LP which she had gradually built too from years of dominance. Luckily she had a huge reputation for herself in the sport by then.
    My favorite performance of her Carmen was at 88 Euros. I think she was definitely on her way out, and surpassed technically by Thomas, Ito, Manley, Trenary and even Kadavy. Most especially the gifts at the 88 worlds (granted Manley, Thomas and Ito didn't help matters by not being on their best). Overmarked at 87 NHK, Olympics and Worlds. I do think Witt deserved her other titles/medals on her career but there was alot of overscoring in that final season for her. It was her huge rep that kept her on top rather than being better than said skaters in any of the 3 phases by 88.

  17. #17
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    The Budapest Worlds was a pretty lame event anyway. The only high point was Valova & Vasiliev having their best performance in years to upset G&G and win their 3rd World title in their swan song appearance as amateurs. The dance was even more boring than it was in Calgary. The judges should have just given B&B 18 6.0s as the final skaters in their Swan Song skate as that would have been the only exciting thing about the event. The singles were craptacular. Orser was 2nd in the short with a performance even he said would probably have been 8th or 9th in Calgary. The top women had 3 clean shorts and 0 clean longs. Probably the worst of all the post Olympic Worlds.

    Manley probably should have won the 88 Worlds with 1st in figures, 4th in short, and 1st in the long, but even she wouldnt have been a great champion with a weak short and a much weaker long program than Calgary.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The Budapest Worlds was a pretty lame event anyway. The only high point was Valova & Vasiliev having their best performance in years to upset G&G and win their 3rd World title in their swan song appearance as amateurs.
    I agree that 88 Worlds was very weak, but I would say there were a coupe of other high points, namely Orser's free skate (IMO his best ever), a beautiful free skate from Wachsman and Waggoner in pairs, and Kurt Browning's free skate, complete with the first quad.

  19. #19

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    I would need to go back and watch the women's competition - but for the men - I thought Boitano had a fantastic skate and don't have a problem with him winning under 6.0. But when I watch the 2 freeskates back to back I prefer Orser's by quite a bit.

  20. #20
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    Orser's program had much better footwork, and more difficult in betweens, even with Boitano's vast improvement and artistry and presentation. Actually a large part of his improvement was not having many in betweens as Bezic found that is the style of skating which worked best for him. It definitely did, but the judges still are correct to take note of the large amount of basic stroking in his programs which is why his artistic marks werent sky high (along with that skating before Orser most judges werent going to 5.9, 5.9 or 6.0, 5.9). Had Orser dont just one more jump stronger or additional he would have won. Either landed the triple flip cleaner, done the 2nd triple axel, or even done a triple-triple somewhere. As it was Boitano had all those things over him, and it was too much to overcome.

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