View Poll Results: Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

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  • Anett Pootosh

    27 13.78%
  • Michelle Kwan

    51 26.02%
  • Kim Yu Na

    16 8.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 3.06%
  • Rosalynn Summer

    11 5.61%
  • Katarina Witt

    5 2.55%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 1.02%
  • Midori Ito

    2 1.02%
  • Oksana Baiul

    37 18.88%
  • Dorothy Hamill

    15 7.65%
  • Peggy Fleming

    16 8.16%
  • Trixi Schubert

    8 4.08%
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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    I disagree. Kim arguably faced better SKATERS, but not better competitors. Asada and Kostner are incredibly talented and great if they are on, but they hardly ever skate well in both portions of the competition. Let's examine the seasons Kim participated in:

    2007 - Ando won overall because both Kim and Asada had major mistakes in one portion of the competition.
    2008 - Asada won, but not with the best FP. Kim fell in the SP.
    2009 - Kim skates lights out in the SP, but had a fall in the LP. The rest of the competition was alright but not amazing.
    2010 - Yes, the Olympics was a tough competition. I'll agree to that. But not Worlds - Worlds that year was fairly open but Kim did not materialize.
    2011 - Kim lost to a subpar Ando and in a generally very weak field.

    I also disagree about Yamaguchi. While she faced Ito and Harding who were amazing skaters (one of them iconic and legendary), neither were the best competitors. There's a reason she won the Olympics with two major mistakes.

    And Baiul..better competition than Kwan? Baiul's main competition was Bonaly and Kerrigan, neither whom I consider to be particularly top skaters. I suppose if you mean Baiul faced competition because she had very close results with her competitors, that speaks more about Baiul's lower skating level compared to the likes of Yamaguchi and Kwan, then about the high level of her competitors.

    Imagine if Kwan made one fall in the FP during one of the years she won Worlds. She would easily have lost 1996, 2000, and 2001. 2003 would have been close with Sokolova, but I think the judges would've still given the nod though it could maybe go either way.

    Lets analazye the Worlds Kwan won then:

    1996- did beat a very good Chen, but other than that a sucky event. Slutskaya easily won bronze by a huge margin over others with a gigantic sliding fall on her side, another big stumble, and novice level presentation.
    1998- typical post Olympic Worlds, weak, but a litle worse than usual. Rechnio was robbed of a medal overall with 3 triples.
    2000- nothing special, Kwan was great but only had to beat mediocre skates by both Slutskaya and Butyrskaya.
    2001- similar to 2000.
    2003- Sokolova was the silver medalist, nuff said.


    For the ones you mentioned:

    2007- Overall a spectacular event. A WR short program by Kim, a WR long program by Asada, and still neither won. Ando delivered two incredibly technically demanding and perfect programs with much improved presentation to win the overall title. That Mao's mistake ikn teh short program was enough to cost her the ititle with her at the time unwordly LP skate was telling to the standard.

    2008- Disapointing event, agreed. Mao though did a triple-triple in both programs, gorgeous artistry, and her only real mistake was a sliding fall on the first triple axel. She still barely won.

    2009- Excellent event again.

    2010- Best ever Olympic event in any discipline, no question.

    2010- OK this was the weakest event of the ones you listed but Mao still landed 3 triple axels (one with a questionable downgrade), and still didnt win either program, so the standard was still higher than most of Kwan's competitors.

    2013- Very high standard. Silver and bronze medalists made a few mistakes but were overall still of an extremely high standard of technical difficulty, complex choreography, high level non jump elements, and beautiful artistry. Many great performances from skaters 4-10, and alot of great up and comers.


    Who were the great competitors as you put it Kwan faced. Only Tara who was around only a year and a bit, and maybe Hughes who was also a blip. Slutskaya was no great competitor, her only totally clean World competition was 2002 with a safe watered down effort. She just looks consistent relative to the collection of headcases behind them. Cohen was an awful competitor, both a poorer competitor and overall skater than Asada, Kostner, and the rest. So was Butyrskaya, and Chen was a mediocre competitor by the time she was facing Kwan, crashing and burning all the events in her World title defense season except Worlds.



    As for Baiul, the overall competitive field was pretty good, even if there wasnt one huge legend she had to beat. Look at the 1993 Worlds and all the clean skates in the top 10. Amazing. Chen skated much better to barely win bronze there as she did to barely win bronze at the Olympics Kwan won silver in Nagano. Bonaly is just a jumper, just like Slutskaya Kwan's big and most of her career only competitor was. No difference, except Bonaly consistently did 6 and 7 triples and triple-triples more often than Slutskaya did.

    As for Kerrigan lets compare her to who Kwan's biggest U.S competitor was through her career. Weaker than Tara probably but she didnt last long, and IMO a superior skater easily to Hughes, and her Olympic performances far trump what Cohen ever produced in a big event, especialy against Kwan.

    Anyway the poll results speak for themselves. Many more people agree with me than agree with you, except maybe to some extent on Baiul, who I dont feel strongly about either way on this topic.
    Last edited by mustafinabars; 06-13-2013 at 10:05 PM.

  2. #142
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  3. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post

    Anyway the poll results speak for themselves. Many more people agree with me than agree with you, except maybe to some extent on Baiul, who I dont feel strongly about either way on this topic.
    Well, over 72% of posters who participated in this poll (which has a low turn-out compared to the number posters or even active posters, but not sure if it's low compared to other polls in the Trash Can) did not vote for Kwan, so we don't know what the numbers would be if it was just Baiul and Kwan head-to-head.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    Lets analazye the Worlds Kwan won then:

    2003- Sokolova was the silver medalist, nuff said
    This actually was one of the more enjoyable events I attended.

    If I recall, Sokolova actually took 2-3 ordinals from Kwan after the short program. I remember she was nailing 3+3 combos in practice left and right.

    Suguri and Volchkova were skating quite well too, and if Cohen didn't SashaSplatTM in the short program, it could've been an exciting skate for the gold.

    It also served as Carolina Kostner's coming out party, and some skaters who would later become big names (Shizuka Arakawa, Joannie Rochette) were undermarked in my opinion.

    It was definitely Kwan's to lose, but she was skating with so much confidence that second half of the season (and at home) and I knew she wouldn't.

    I can see other's arguments why she had the weakest competition, but considering her longevity and how many good/great skaters she competed against, I have to give credit where credit is due.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    2007 - Ando won overall because both Kim and Asada had major mistakes in one portion of the competition.
    2008 - Asada won, but not with the best FP. Kim fell in the SP.
    2009 - Kim skates lights out in the SP, but had a fall in the LP. The rest of the competition was alright but not amazing.
    2010 - Yes, the Olympics was a tough competition. I'll agree to that. But not Worlds - Worlds that year was fairly open but Kim did not materialize.
    2011 - Kim lost to a subpar Ando and in a generally very weak field..
    Kim didnt fell, she popped 3sal
    And at 2008 world, asada fell in FS

  6. #146
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    @ the results. Yes, Michelle Kwan had such lame competition that she breezed her way to five world titles, all in a row without ever taking a step down.

  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    @ the results. Yes, Michelle Kwan had such lame competition that she breezed her way to five world titles, all in a row without ever taking a step down.
    ... with World titles 3 and 4 including a triple/triple ...

  8. #148
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    i would say oksana, due to fact she didn't stay in but two years

    in fact the 1993 worlds was kinda of unexpected of who medaled.
    nancy was suppose to medal/win due to she medal at olympics in 1992 and had 2 previous medals.
    lu chen medal in 1992 worlds.

    so when it was oksana, surya, lu chen who did what she was suppose to and medal .

    i just think oksana due to lenght of time, no one challenged her/when they should of.
    to

  9. #149
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    if you want to get picky
    they all had weak competitions
    it depends on who you judge the criteria.

    michelle 7 jumps/triple triples with tara/ sarah, irina, made more of jumps than artistry. had to add in sasha lu chen, midori in 1996. can add in shizuka, maria, start of the younger set with julia soldatova, miki, sasha, sarah, . no leeway onle fall messed you up. short program was placement had to be in top 3 to win. couldn't mess up or didn't win like now
    had to do triples in both long and short program, in fact combinations mainly was mandatory triple /double combination.

    trixie shubert the figure expert had julie lynn holmes, janet lynn, karen magnussen. they had a leeway with the figures to hold them up if bomb free skate
    peggy had the figures and only gabrielle seyfert --no triples only doubles. only doubles/singles

    kristi only 5 , dorothy no triples, all she had was midori, possible tonya, nancym, possible did 3-4 triples rarely did they do five triples in program. why tonya, midori was big tried, credited triple axel but maybe not all other triples like now. worked on triple axel but left out other triples . only did triples in long not in short/just started . triple in short was either or situation. just
    placement had to be in top 3 to win
    annette just started doing triples but had figures all she had was linda possible dagmar, with figures to hold up. didn't have to do triples in short/combination if did was double double for some who got up there
    dorothy no triples, just started a short program, figures still counted . all she had was diane de leeuw, christine errath

    katarina might had have a few like rosalyn, deb, kira, elizabeth manley, elaine zayak. caryn kadavy, but figure kinda of help them by holding them up. only did one -2 triples in program, tiffany chin

    midori did triples axel, started under figures was held down until taken away . figure were her short comings. did triple axel /triple loop, didnt have to do triple in short only long
    was either or situation.


    for michelle the toughest is a tie between michelle/irina, katarina due to stayed in so long and had to keep ahead of their rivals plus the up and comers for over 8-10 years.

    yuna is another strong one with--mao, mike, joannie, carolina kostner - only downside is the ijs system where hold up due to pcs scores and not taking enough off for mistakes which makes
    it seem like the skaters are skating/winning messy and badly. winning by falling and being prop up due to who they are not how skated.

    rosalyn basically who katarina had like elaine, tiffany katarina, kira,

  10. #150
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    cant argue Michelle wins in every poll,

  11. #151
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    The problem about Oksana Baiul is that she had great competitors against her, but I'll probably never know why she won.
    IMO, Surya Bonaly, Lu Chen or Yuka Sato outskated Oksana Baiul at 1993 Worlds and Lu Chen and Nancy Kerrigan outskated her at 1994 Olympics.
    Hahahaaaa

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    @ the results. Yes, Michelle Kwan had such lame competition that she breezed her way to five world titles, all in a row without ever taking a step down.
    She only lost when she F-ed up. None of her competition was ever good enough to beat her, which is not an indication of strong competition:

    1997 Worlds- lost since she blew combo in short, and doubled another jump in long.
    1999 Worlds- lost since she skated awful. Still won silver despite skating awful which says something.
    2000 Worlds- nearly lost by missing the triple flip in the short, but when she skated a clean long the judges gave her the title right away even skating first in the final flight.
    2002 Olympics- lost since she skated bad long.
    2002 Worlds- lost since she blew combo in short.
    2004 Worlds- lost since she skated bad qualifying, went overtime in short, and only did 5 triples and doubled major triple in the long.
    2005 Worlds- lost since she skated bad.

    The only time she didnt blow the title herself and was beaten by a competitor even skating fairly well was the 1998 Olympics, and even there her own skate was far from her best.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    The problem about Oksana Baiul is that she had great competitors against her, but I'll probably never know why she won.
    IMO, Surya Bonaly, Lu Chen or Yuka Sato outskated Oksana Baiul at 1993 Worlds and Lu Chen and Nancy Kerrigan outskated her at 1994 Olympics.
    Hahahaaaa
    Sato did not skate good at the 93 Worlds. She did only 4 triples. tried no triple flip, stepped out of a jump, and did only triple loop combination in short. 1994 Olympics long program is a more realistic instance Sato outskated Baiul than the 93 Worlds, but there she had blown the short anyway, although she still should have been over Tanja and Katarina in the short which robbed her of a medal chance even with her blown short.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    She only lost when she F-ed up. None of her competition was ever good enough to beat her, which is not an indication of strong competition:

    1997 Worlds- lost since she blew combo in short, and doubled another jump in long.
    1999 Worlds- lost since she skated awful. Still won silver despite skating awful which says something.
    2000 Worlds- nearly lost by missing the triple flip in the short, but when she skated a clean long the judges gave her the title right away even skating first in the final flight.
    2002 Olympics- lost since she skated bad long.
    2002 Worlds- lost since she blew combo in short.
    2004 Worlds- lost since she skated bad qualifying, went overtime in short, and only did 5 triples and doubled major triple in the long.
    2005 Worlds- lost since she skated bad.

    The only time she didnt blow the title herself and was beaten by a competitor even skating fairly well was the 1998 Olympics, and even there her own skate was far from her best.
    Doubling a jump in the lp at 97 Worlds didn't cost her the title. She won the long program there.

    Re: 2000 Worlds, they gave it to her right away, huh? I thought that her scores were actually low for that performance.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanette View Post
    Doubling a jump in the lp at 97 Worlds didn't cost her the title. She won the long program there.

    Re: 2000 Worlds, they gave it to her right away, huh? I thought that her scores were actually low for that performance.
    I agree her 2000 Worlds LP performance was good enough for 5.9 technical and 6.0 artistic so the scores in a sense could have been even higher. That is aside my point though. I dont deny Kwan as a quality skater, probably top 5 all time. The thread is about her competition though. Her marks were still high enough to ensure her the win even skating first in the final flight, and even with the 2 short program leaders left, which shows even the judges considered nobody else as competition for her, as otherwise regardless of the quality of the performance the judges would leave room for others to have a chance to win if anyone was considered a threat.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    I agree her 2000 Worlds LP performance was good enough for 5.9 technical and 6.0 artistic so the scores in a sense could have been even higher. That is aside my point though. I dont deny Kwan as a quality skater, probably top 5 all time. The thread is about her competition though. Her marks were still high enough to ensure her the win even skating first in the final flight, and even with the 2 short program leaders left, which shows even the judges considered nobody else as competition for her, as otherwise regardless of the quality of the performance the judges would leave room for others to have a chance to win if anyone was considered a threat.
    So you are saying that the judges were giving Michelle the title before Irina (especially) and Maria even skated? I totally disagree. Her marks were low BECAUSE she was the first skater..the judges had to wait to see how the other two did.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY_9LvtnXn0 "The judges have room for maneuver.."

    There was plenty of room in the tech mark to place Irina above MK..and even some in the second mark.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanette View Post
    So you are saying that the judges were giving Michelle the title before Irina (especially) and Maria even skated? I totally disagree. Her marks were low BECAUSE she was the first skater..the judges had to wait to see how the other two did.
    Well we can feel free to disagree. After she skated and got her marks I already knew she had won. Maybe you didnt. To each their own. Disagree with the 2000 Worlds fine then though, it still wouldnt change my overall point with all the other examples I gave. For 10 years every event Kwan was hers to blow and lose on her own, or to win by standing up. She was her only competition. Some of that is how great she was of course, but that isnt a sign of strong competition, especialy in modern times when you dont expect that clear cut a scenario for such an extended length of time for anyone.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    Well we can feel free to disagree. After she skated and got her marks I already knew she had won. Maybe you didnt. To each their own. Disagree with the 2000 Worlds fine then though, it still wouldnt change my overall point with all the other examples I gave. For 10 years every event Kwan was hers to blow and lose on her own, or to win by standing up. She was her only competition. Some of that is how great she was of course, but that isnt a sign of strong competition, especialy in modern times when you dont expect that clear cut a scenario for such an extended length of time for anyone.
    After her loss to Maria in 99 and her loss to Irina at that ridiculous 99 GPF..MK won the sp and one of the lp's..MK was not seen as invincible and Irina was on the rise.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    Well we can feel free to disagree. After she skated and got her marks I already knew she had won. Maybe you didnt. To each their own. Disagree with the 2000 Worlds fine then though, it still wouldnt change my overall point with all the other examples I gave. For 10 years every event Kwan was hers to blow and lose on her own, or to win by standing up. She was her only competition. Some of that is how great she was of course, but that isnt a sign of strong competition, especialy in modern times when you dont expect that clear cut a scenario for such an extended length of time for anyone.
    At this point, I feel that you are one of the biggest kwanatic ever.

  20. #160
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    No, I am not a Kwanatic. I am a Michelle Kwan fan but far from a fanatic. If I were a fanatic I would just say she had the toughest competition ever and was the best spinner ever, and basiclally pick her in everything like her true fanatical fans do. I am grateful for her as she was the only skater from that era I could stand practically, which is why I voted for Kwan in this thread, not Kwan herself but the others of that era.

    Sloppy and no flow out of her jumps Slutskaya, storky and inconsistent as hell Butyrskaya, gangly and terrible jumper Hughes, Sasha splat Cohen. Yet some of her true fanatics will even say not only was that not among the weakest competition, but that this group was the toughest competition ever. Tara really needed to stick around longer, and Shizuka needed to get her shit together sooner, and give Kwan some real competition and a real long term rival, rather than the ISU created one with Slutskaya. Oh well.

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