View Poll Results: Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

Voters
196. You may not vote on this poll
  • Anett Pootosh

    27 13.78%
  • Michelle Kwan

    51 26.02%
  • Kim Yu Na

    16 8.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 3.06%
  • Rosalynn Summer

    11 5.61%
  • Katarina Witt

    5 2.55%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 1.02%
  • Midori Ito

    2 1.02%
  • Oksana Baiul

    37 18.88%
  • Dorothy Hamill

    15 7.65%
  • Peggy Fleming

    16 8.16%
  • Trixi Schubert

    8 4.08%
Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 227
  1. #81
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,210
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Fratianne was actually a very good spinner for the time. One of the few areas of her skating I can actually appreciate. Her signature spin was the cannonball, I think she invented that spin but could be wrong on that.

    I will also say her short program in Lake Placid was outstanding. By far the most exciting skate I saw from her since the 76 Nationals 4 years earlier. Her long by contrast was excellent and clean but her usual blah and uninspiring effort all the same, and I fully understand it not getting the points to win the long program over Biellmann or catch Poetzsch overall from behind. Here is her excellent short program though:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNKj9H77mJA

  2. #82
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    That SP does showcase some strong, centered spinning by Linda. I went back to her Carmen at 1980 Worlds too and I can appreciate the cannonball in the first combo spin. I am spoiled today, and I can see the 1980 crowd went wild for it. She actually skated Carmen better at the 1980 Worlds than at the Olympics. The final scratch after the arabians was faster. Did she ever change that dress though?

  3. #83
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,983
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Irina yes was competition. Tara was for 13 months, which would have been 0-2 months had Kwan not driven herself to tears and a coma by her own words with her worst ever skating in 1997. The rest? Not. Lu Chen was Michelle's competition for 1 event- 1996 Worlds. Maria was competition for Michelle if she fell 4 or 5 times. Sarah pretty much the same. Sasha maybe could have been competition but cant keep herself from falling over and over.
    But does that necessarily make them weak competition? I think you guys are being a little strict here. Some of these skaters are very much on par with Mao and Carolina. And besides that Carolina was a mess of a skater before 2010-2011 and was no challenge to Yuna.

  4. #84
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think it's funny how people worry skating is going to get kicked out of the Olympics because of today's judging when Dagmar Lurz (aka Dagmar Lurch) was winning medals and the sport survived.

  5. #85
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Katellorizo
    Posts
    3,487
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    BTW, which skaters (singles, pairs or dance) could do Rosamunde justice?
    Hmmm.... I would say Janet Lynn, Carolina Kostner, Akiko Suzuki, and possibly John Curry.

    I think it would be very difficult for ice dancers to do a program to it, but a pair might be able to pull it off.

  6. #86
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    236
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    My vote was Michelle Kwan. The thread title is average level of competition so naming a bunch of names that stretch out over a long career, some who lasted a year or less at the top is not valid. It is also hilarious to see Kwan fans naming people like Butyrskaya, Suguri, and Hughes to trump up her competition. Butyrskaya and Suguri were NO competition for Kwan, and wouldnt be competition for any of the people on this poll if transported to a new era either. They are third rate skaters at best. Naming them is the equivalent of a Yamaguchi and Ito fan calling Karen Preston and Marina Kiellmann competition for them, or Kim fans naming Nagasu, Lepisto, and Rochette as competition for her. As for Hughes she is regarded by most as the worst Olympic Champion ever who won because 6 or 7 people messed up so I wouldnt glorify her either. The very fact skaters the caliber of Butyrskaya and Hughes could win a World and Olympic title in that era already speaks volumes. They are the kind of skaters if you didnt know their achievements you would look at on video and laugh at, Maria with her huge whip around landings and clunky style and falling 3 times per program usually, and Hughes with her giant Zhang like mule kicks on all her toe jumps, gigantic flutz, and pumping shoulders to bad choreography. Someone like Chen only challenged her at one event ever is also funny, and basically most people that 4 or 5 Kwans chant in unision in this thread dont make any sense, so little wonder they are falling on deaf ears.

    Based on average level competition Kwan usually didnt have much. From 1996 to 2003 which is probably her prime when did she face a decent field. 1996, 2002, and maybe 2001 would be the only times ever. 1997 and 1998 it was Tara, a skater with tiny jumps and poor style who Kwan had no excuse to have trouble beating most times anyway, and the 7 dwarfes. 1999 and 2000 there was literally nobody. 2003 there was pretty much nobody as well.

    My second choice would have been Peggy Fleming. I cant believe she doesnt have more votes. I saw her Gold medal performance in Grenoble on youtube once and boy did it suck, even for 60s standards. Yet she won by a landslide. The rest must have been awful for her to win so easily even with performances like that. She might be a better choice than Kwan in fact, since even Kwan couldnt win easily with a performance like that translated to 90s standards probably, but since Fleming has no hope of winning this poll I might as well pick someone who could so Kwan.

  7. #87
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    236
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    As for the Kwan era if you remove Kwan then Slutskaya is a 5 or 6 time World Champion.
    That is a great quote. Pretty much anyone who has a question about why some think the Kwan era was weak just needs to read that, and the discussion is over.

  8. #88
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    9,802
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Why do none of Frank Carroll's lady skaters have attractive spin positions? Technically they are good enough spinners, but Fratianne and Kwan both had blah looking, boring spins.
    Mirai and Nikodinov were both Frank's ladies. You think they too had "blah looking, boring spins" ?

    Fratianne did the basic camel and sit position that everyone did under 6.0, but she did add the cannonball position to her sit. I'm not sure if she and Frank invented that move but that was known as a signature spin of hers. If you look at the utube link of Linda's SP from 77, she had good speed, position, and centering on her camel-change-camel and on her flying sit.

  9. #89
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Mirai started missing spins when Frank coached her! But I am not going to argue with you because the spins of these Carroll students are obviously good. However, I think Peter Oppeguard helped with the exquisite positions that Nikodinov achieved.

  10. #90
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    356
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I disagree that Slutskaya was not formidable competition for Kwan. Regardless of what many think of her actual skating, she did up the ante technically and forced Kwan to skate clean to have any chance of winning. She beat Kwan many times in the early 00's when Kwan was still in her speak, although lost out at both worlds to her. Chen beat Kwan in 95 and challenged her at 96 worlds, after that she was a shadow of her former self. Regardless wheter Kwan should have easily beaten Hughes, Lipinkski, and Bute (who i think is by far the best skater of these 3) the simple matter is that she did lose out to them (and in Lipinskis case several times).

  11. #91

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,825
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    38634
    Say what you want, but 1996 Worlds, 1998 Olympics, and 2001 Worlds provided some of the best top two ladies performances in terms of technical difficulty and in the case of 1996 and even 1998, technical difficulty plus artistic merit.

    Other than those years, In 1997, Tara wins with 7 triples including a 3Loop/3Loop and a double axel/half loop/Triple Sal. Kwan won the LP with 6 triples, a 3/3, and great choreography.

    The World Champion in 1999 landed 7 triple jumps with a 3/3 sequence and the silver medalist landed 6 with some messy landings.

    2000, high level in the SP and in the LP, Kwan won with 7 triples and a 3/3 with Slute following with 6, and two inspired performances by Bute and Gusmeroli.

    2001, high level of skating with Kwan 7 triples and a 3/3, Slute having an ambitious routine with an attempt at a 3/3/2 and another 3/3, Bute 6 triples with a 3/3 sequence, and Hughes 7 triples with a 3/3.

    SLC was somewhat disappointing, but Kwan is considered a choke when she still landed 5 triple jumps (whereas some one like Yamaguchi won her gold with that many triples and a hand-down on the Salchow and let's not talk about Baiul and Witt). 2002 Worlds, Kwan and Slute both performed 6 triples and I believe Fumie had a solid performance. Yes, some of the skaters on the list are highly preferable to Hughes and Suguri and even Bute, but they were capable of a lot of triple jumps and had to compete with the Kwan package and the Irina speed and power. Not easy at all.

    2003 weaker, but not bad if the silver medalist did 7 triples and 2 3/3 even if the rest of her skating wasn't too great.

    2004, Arakawa 2 3/3s and 7 triples altogether. People make fun of Cohen's consistency, but I believe she tended to land at least 5 triples.

    In Kwan's era, you needed all five triples and consistently land at least 6 to beat her in the LP and that had better come after a clean SP and QR (at Worlds). That's not something I'd call a weak era. People say Bute and Suguri and Hughes would have been laughed at in other eras, but I don't see how they're so much worse than Jill Trenary, Oksana Baiul, Surya Bonaly, inconsistent Yuka Sato, Dagmar Lurz, Tiffany Chin, Kira Ivanova, Annette Poestch, Linda Fratianne, Rosalynn Sumners, etc.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 06-03-2013 at 09:45 AM.

  12. #92
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    It's important to note that Kristi Yamaguchi did a 3Lz-3T.

  13. #93
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    166
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I voted for Slutskaya since while I dont agree with those who say the Kwan-Slutskaya era was that weak, not the stongest, but not the worst of this list either, how can Kwan have so many votes and Slutskaya almost none. Werent the two skating at the identical times, heck they even won their first World medal the same year, and Irina lasted even a bit longer than Michelle but essentialy their careers were the exact same time. So if Kwan's era is deemed as weak competition why wouldnt Irina's also be yet Irina has almost no votes and Kwan so many. That doesnt make sense to me, since whatever is strong for one or weak for one as far as the field goes, must be for the other too.

    It also makes me mad to see all the nasty comments about the wonderful Butyrskaya on this thread.

  14. #94
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    128
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I finally had the chance to see some tapes of Poetzsch skate and wow does he suck. Her skate at the 79 Worlds that won silver was a joke, she missed every jumps the first 2 minutes and skated to horrible music and didnt relate to it any.

  15. #95
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    473
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Plushenko of 2006 would have crushed Lysacek of 2010 by about 30 points, just as he did the 2006 field. Lambiel of 2006 would have probably been about tied with Lysacek and Plushenko in 2010 considering he made way more mistakes in 2010 and was only about 10 points behind both. Buttle of 2006 was probably about the same as Takahashi in 2010 as well. So I would say almost equally weak but since the winner in 2006 was so much better than anyone in 2010 then 2006 is better just for that.
    This is such an absurd statement. Plushenko of 2006 is probably the best overall performance from the two Olympics combined. However, saying Buttle is equivalent to Takahashi is ridiculous. Buttle tanked his SP and made multiple mistakes in the LP. Takahashi skated a clean, sharp SP and long where he landed everything except for the quad. He did get dinged for two URs, but his performances were easily better than Buttle's in both portions. He was also better than 2006 Lambiel, who didn't skate a clean SP, made a couple mistakes in the FP, and was sloppy overall.

    The fact that Weir skated two perfect programs in 2010, but finished lower than in 2006 when he skated poorly in the LP shows how much stronger 2010 is. Remember most of the top ten SPs were clean in 2010, while 2006 only 2 SPs were clean (I don't know if Chiper was clean, but that makes only 3 clean SPs if he was). 2006 was just a lousy, pathetic competition in all disciplines.

  16. #96
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,635
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Baiul's field in 1994 was pretty weak.

  17. #97
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    New England
    Age
    31
    Posts
    537
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Sorry, but this thread is totally for me.

    Kwan? Are you serious? She skated against some of the best, most exciting, and consistent skaters in recent memory. I know IJS has made people so picky to the point that I don't think they can even REALLY enjoy skating anymore (other than so-called 'perfect' technique by a skater who bores me to tears), but come on!

    Ok, here I go:

    I, for one, can acknowledge a flutz or a lip, but people are now trying act like past MANY past wins are unjustified, based on this new CRAP system that has driven many fans (and forum posters...) away from the sport.

    Not everything has to be qualified. Some things can just be appreciated for their beauty, excitement, etc.. This skating system is similar to the major problem of state testing in public schools. All the creativity is gone. Teach to the test-- choreograph to the levels. Blech.

    I am so sad that I can no longer escape the realism of school (I am a teacher) to my favorite sport of art and athleticism that has now become a total points contest, with a PCS system that seems predetermined. It's so sad to me that Yu-na Kim could skate a clean SP (with way inflated scores), but then literally fall on every jump in the LP and still probably win a medal... Patrick Chan, ditto.

    The old system had its issues, but at least it was a transparent enough system that the ridiculous 'lovefest' judging was OBVIOUS to almost everyone. This thing hides lovefest judging by qualifying everything. I think basics are very important, but not so important that they should be the reason a skater wins a medal over a cleaner skate with slightly lesser basics. Sorry, just my opinion.

    Ugh.

    :Steps down off of soapbox.
    Last edited by BmcC102; 06-05-2013 at 04:32 AM.

  18. #98
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    163
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    I am so sad that I can no longer escape the realism of school (I am a teacher) to my favorite sport of art and athleticism that has now become a total points contest, with a PCS system that seems predetermined. It's so sad to me that Yu-na Kim could skate a clean SP (with way inflated scores), but then literally fall on every jump in the LP and still probably win a medal...
    although kim have been weaker on FS than SP, She usually have been had better FS than her competitiors in international competitions. (except 06-07/07-08 season when she was injuired)
    Everytime, When she get major titles, she had close to clean FS as well as SP. why did you mentioned 'yuna kim' as an example, though that was never happened, with use word "probably"? just to bash her? lol


    and it would be intereting fact to you, she has never won by PCS
    Last edited by karlon; 06-05-2013 at 06:39 AM.

  19. #99
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    New England
    Age
    31
    Posts
    537
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    No, not just to bash her, but to bash how she is judged.

  20. #100
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    163
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    No, not just to bash her, but to bash how she is judged.
    please answer to my question in detail
    why did you mentioned her as an example, although that was never happened, with use word, "probably"?
    when she got medaled unfairly with skate perfect SP, and more than 3 falls in FS, and saved by Huge PCS, like Chan?
    Last edited by karlon; 06-05-2013 at 06:39 AM.

Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •