View Poll Results: Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

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  • Anett Pootosh

    27 13.78%
  • Michelle Kwan

    51 26.02%
  • Kim Yu Na

    16 8.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 3.06%
  • Rosalynn Summer

    11 5.61%
  • Katarina Witt

    5 2.55%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 1.02%
  • Midori Ito

    2 1.02%
  • Oksana Baiul

    37 18.88%
  • Dorothy Hamill

    15 7.65%
  • Peggy Fleming

    16 8.16%
  • Trixi Schubert

    8 4.08%
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Maybe it's because she was too good for the others !
    I do look at the other skaters and I think they are weak. I also dont think it was a case of Michelle being too good as the rare periods she faced someone who was even any good like Tara in 97-98 and Irina in 2001-2002 she often lost. Apart from that everyone she faced was quite mediocre and unthreatening though.
    Mao did a good job exposing the Kwan era skaters when as an underaged developing skater who only had her technical at that point, but not her later artistic skills, and not the reputation she would later have to get fair marks, she went a combined 6-1 vs Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa in the 2005-2006 season and is still referred to as the uncrowned 2006 Olympic winner. Mao isnt even the best skater of her own era though.

  2. #42
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    How many clean SPs did we have in 2002 SLC? Wasn't it like ten? I think that's pretty incredible.

    I remember not looking as forward to the ladies competition in Vancouver because nobody was really hitting it for me in terms of just commanding the ice and competition (outside Yu Na Kim) during the 2007-2010. However, once the competition started, the ladies as a whole performed amazingly. Too bad the Mens competition (which I thought was the most competitive mens field ever) underperformed and ended up being sloppy as a whole (with some great performances).

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I do look at the other skaters and I think they are weak. I also dont think it was a case of Michelle being too good as the rare periods she faced someone who was even any good like Tara in 97-98 and Irina in 2001-2002 she often lost. Apart from that everyone she faced was quite mediocre and unthreatening though.
    Mao did a good job exposing the Kwan era skaters when she went a combined 6-1 vs Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa in the 2005-2006 season and is still referred to as the uncrowned 2006 Olympic winner. Mao isnt even the best skater of her own era though.
    OK, it's your opinion.
    But again, you consider that her competitors were weak skaters. But what about Annett Poetzsch competitors ? Rosalynn Summers competitors ? Katarina Witt wompetitors ? ...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    How many clean SPs did we have in 2002 SLC? Wasn't it like ten?
    Kwan- underrotated triple flip. Not clean
    Slutskaya- break between footwork into triple flip and wobbled badly on last spin. Not clean.
    Cohen- did not complete the footwork sequence pattern. Not clean
    Hughes- flutz. Not clean.
    Butyrskaya- first clean skate but was boring and poor, hence her 5th place.
    Suguri- clean skate, undermarked.
    Sebeysten- clean skate, just jumps.
    Robinson- clean skate, poor skater.
    Gusmeroli- no footwork into triple flip, .3 deduction, not clean.

    So 4 clean skates I know of. There might be more but of the 9 I saw there were only 4. Unfortunately of the 5 good skaters in the event- Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Hughes, and Suguri, only 1 managed a clean short and 0 a clean long. Only the poor skaters did clean skates, like Jennifer stalk my triple lutz for 20 seconds Robinson and others.


    The mens event in Vancouver was so dissapointing. Had everyone skated their best Lysacek and Plushenko would have been down in 7th and 8th place, but they ended up 1st and 2nd. So much talent in the field but didnt deliver there. Should have just held it over again. The ladies event was great though even though I was mad Kim won, but she deserved it. I wanted Mao to win but she still made Olympic history so I was ok with that, and she atleast got silver. Poor Nagasu did skates good enough to medal and win any other Olympics and took only 4th.

  5. #45

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    Kwan was amazing and grew but also had some extraordinary competition. Maybe not in all areas but some. Kwan was so above so many but lots of her opponents were not average. Domination doesn't come from weak competition always. Maybe everyone was definitely inferior to shuba's figures. Maybe her opponents in figures werent average.

  6. #46
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    Schuba did benefit from a weak figures field as well. You can find scores on winter-olympic-memories.com and you will notice her figures scores arent that different than Fleming. However her competitors scores in figures are really low. Gaby Seyfert was said to be weak in figures but she was always 2nd when she stayed and competed in Trixi's era, and close enough to easily beat Schuba overall. I dont see how so many vote Fleming when Seyfert who was 2nd best to Fleming proved even old and past her prime she could easily dominate Trixi's era including Trixi herself, so Schuba would have to be the choice of weaker competition over her.

    As for the Kwan era if you remove Kwan then Slutskaya is a 5 or 6 time World Champion. That already says enough about the quality of competition in that era.

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=kuzytalent;3932138]Kwan- underrotated triple flip. Not clean
    Slutskaya- break between footwork into triple flip and wobbled badly on last spin. Not clean.
    Cohen- did not complete the footwork sequence pattern. Not clean
    Hughes- flutz. Not clean.
    Butyrskaya- first clean skate but was boring and poor, hence her 5th place.
    Suguri- clean skate, undermarked.
    Sebeysten- clean skate, just jumps.
    Robinson- clean skate, poor skater.
    Gusmeroli- no footwork into triple flip, .3 deduction, not clean.

    So 4 clean skates I know of. There might be more but of the 9 I saw there were only 4. Unfortunately of the 5 good skaters in the event- Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Hughes, and Suguri, only 1 managed a clean short and 0 a clean long. Only the poor skaters did clean skates, like Jennifer stalk my triple lutz for 20 seconds Robinson and others.

    VIETgrlTerifa is just referring to the fact that the skates were nominally clean. It's rare that a performance is technically 'perfet', but from a general standpoint of delivering the elements, all of these performances were clean. Meier and Fontana were clean as well.

  8. #48
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    Even if the 2010 Vancouver for men wasn't the best competition, it was still better than 2006. That event was the biggest splatfest ever. The only skater who skated decently in both portions of the competition was Plushenko. The silver and bronze medalists didn't skate well in both SP and LP.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Even if the 2010 Vancouver for men wasn't the best competition, it was still better than 2006. That event was the biggest splatfest ever. The only skater who skated decently in both portions of the competition was Plushenko. The silver and bronze medalists didn't skate well in both SP and LP.
    Plushenko of 2006 would have crushed Lysacek of 2010 by about 30 points, just as he did the 2006 field. Lambiel of 2006 would have probably been about tied with Lysacek and Plushenko in 2010 considering he made way more mistakes in 2010 and was only about 10 points behind both. Buttle of 2006 was probably about the same as Takahashi in 2010 as well. So I would say almost equally weak but since the winner in 2006 was so much better than anyone in 2010 then 2006 is better just for that.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Kwan- underrotated triple flip. Not clean
    Slutskaya- break between footwork into triple flip and wobbled badly on last spin. Not clean.
    Cohen- did not complete the footwork sequence pattern. Not clean
    Hughes- flutz. Not clean.
    Butyrskaya- first clean skate but was boring and poor, hence her 5th place.
    Suguri- clean skate, undermarked.
    Sebeysten- clean skate, just jumps.
    Robinson- clean skate, poor skater.
    Gusmeroli- no footwork into triple flip, .3 deduction, not clean.

    So 4 clean skates I know of. There might be more but of the 9 I saw there were only 4. Unfortunately of the 5 good skaters in the event- Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Hughes, and Suguri, only 1 managed a clean short and 0 a clean long. Only the poor skaters did clean skates, like Jennifer stalk my triple lutz for 20 seconds Robinson and others.
    .
    This is hilarious! If all those performances were that bad, why didn't you win the short at the '02 Olympics?

    Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, and Hughes were clean enough in the judges eyes, and certainly mine. They weren't picky about Kwan's flip, and that was the only thing even close to a mistake that you mentioned.

    Clean essentially means land your jumps on 1 foot and show an overall refinement to the program while checking off the elements. They all did that.

  11. #51
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    Well if that is what was accepted as clean back then, it just shows how far ladies skating especialy has come since then. As for Hughes she deserved about 8th in the short. That was pretty much a consensus of all at the time. The best she would have managed is a bronze behind Slutskaya and Kwan with fair short program marks.

  12. #52
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    Considering the scoring system and what the judges were rewarding, Kwan was facing skaters who were not only capable of performing (and had performed) more-or-less clean routines with at least six triple jumps, but also having triple/triple combinations and good-to-excellent spins.

    She faced the likes of a prime Lipinski, Lu Chen, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Shizuka Arakawa, Fumie Suguri (laugh or not but was a top five skater who could have spoiled), a rising Carolina Kostner, a rising Miki Ando, Sokolova who did two triple/triples at Worlds 2003 LP and a triple/triple in the SP, and the depth of American ladies that could have competed well at Worlds if they had qualified for Worlds out of Nationals.

    I think Kwan's competitors consistently performed at a high level against her even if they weren't always the same competitors. They usually performed more than 5 triples and if they had done five triples, it was seen as weak in Kwan's era. I know it's not applicable to now with skaters doing much more in the choreography and the elements being more technically-demanding, but compared to other 6.0 eras, I think Kwan had to fend off more clean and high-level performances than others on a longer period of time.

    Interesting to note that one thing Kwan and Kim have in common is that they both defeated skaters who performed a triple axel. Kim beat Mao in Vancouver and other competitions, and Kwan beat Nelidina, Yukari Nakano, and Kimmie Meissner (though Meissner's was cheated) who all performed triple axels at a competition in which Kwan won.

    If you're going to pick apart the relatively clean skates of the Ladies in 2002, then look at the past three Worlds for the ladies and check out the actual elements planned and performed. You'll see tons of deductions and negative GOE and technique calls even for skates that look clean as well.

    As to Hughes SP placement and a consensus, vocal FSU fans who don't like that Sarah Hughes is an Olympic champion is not a consensus. Although I do agree she should have been outside the top 6 for that SP, the judges themselves were split on that decision. The fact that her ordinals were all over the place shows just how hard it was to judge that event under 6.0 with all the more-or-less clean skates. I think every skater from 4th down had a wide range of ordinals that sometimes flip-flopped after a skater performed a clean program.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 06-01-2013 at 08:36 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I was thinking it might could be that, but I was also wondering if some psychotic Yu-Na fanatics were somehow trying to lessen Kwan's accomplishments by claiming she had no competition to try and make Yu-Na somehow seem better, which is really contradictory if that is what is happening considering how those same Yu-Na fanatics claim that Mao, Joannie, Carolina, and Miki are no competition whatsoever for Yu-Na. Freakin' DELUSIONAL!
    Have you thought about trying yoga?

    Adjusted for intrinsic weightiness (or lack thereof) of topic, Mel Gibson has nothing on you in terms of the technical difficulty (the number of convolutions) of the rant.

    (FYI: most Yuna fans have great respect for Michelle Kwan, particularly because she is Yuna's acknowledged role model and idol, and friend)

  14. #54

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    Perhaps on a national level there was really no one other than Tara who could challenge Michelle. Sasha "seemed" to be the one to dethrone her but just did not have the competitive mindset to win.

    Michelle internationally was a great champion. In three of her world titles she had to be flawless in order to even have a shot at winning...in 2000 she even needed "the stars to align" going into the long program.

    She also never won the Olympics.

    So not sure how her competition was "average" when two of her U.S. rivals ended up being Olympic Champions, and in three of her five world titles, she needed perfectly executed 7 triple programs with the 3/3 (in 2000 and 2001) in order to win.

    Its not like she flopped on her butt the whole time but ended up winning because everyone around her was "average".

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I'm so . I'm going to FSU jail.
    LOL why are you playing sarcastic? YOU are the one who owe some apology to Yu-Na fans.

    I repeat: please, show us a single example, past or current, where Yu-Na fans tried to dismiss Kwan’s or any other’s accomplishments as compiled against a weak field. That was your claim, right?

    Outrageous and funny, at the same time. Never underestimate evil spirit of those J-bots! I’m calling them J-bots, since I’m now convinced they are not particularly worthy fans of Asada, either.

  16. #56
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    How the heck is Anett Poetzsch not winning this poll. OK I admit I dont like her skating at all, but this isnt even about the deemed leading skater herself as much as who they competed against (unless I am misinterpreting this thread) and that was such a sucky bad era at the very top with boring Poetzsch, boring Fratianne, and ultra boring Lurz hogging all the podiums. Poetzsch herself had to bomb like she did at the 77 and 79 Worlds to lose since Fratianne was so much weaker than her in figures, and not outstanding enough in free skating herself to make up all the difference even vs Anett's moderately good (at best) free skating. She won the Olympics despite not doing her best in any of the 3 phases, and bombing the short program, and her chief rival (Fratianne) skating her absolute best, and then won another Worlds to end her career despite bombing both the short and long there with her worst skates of the season (though she did her best in figures unlike the Games) so that says something to her competition. There was none.

    I know Schuba won competitions more easily than Poetzsch because of figures but her figures were other wordly and the best ever, which I never heard anyone say about Poetzsch, just excellent and the best in the World at figures at the time but nothing historic. Plus Schuba and her figures were able to win her competitions over a stellar group of skaters like Lynn, Holmes, Magnussen, Morgenstram, Seyfert, and the rest, not dull generic good skaters like Fratianne and Lurz.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post

    She faced the likes of a prime Lipinski, Lu Chen, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Shizuka Arakawa, Fumie Suguri (laugh or not but was a top five skater who could have spoiled), a rising Carolina Kostner, a rising Miki Ando, Sokolova who did two triple/triples at Worlds 2003 LP and a triple/triple in the SP, and the depth of American ladies that could have competed well at Worlds if they had qualified for Worlds out of Nationals.
    .
    Kwan in 2003 was so far ahead in presentation it was almost like a military battle between the USA vs. Jamaica in the second mark. I personally feel Sokolova needed those 3-3 combos to justify herself medaling even third. She could jump and was a cutie, but there was nothing between the jumps besides bouncy movements and unsophisticated and dull choreography.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Why not, tell me, when I have enough suspicion.

    Is it good for any public forum when a certain group of posters keep posting obviously loaded poll questions and subsequent coalition posts over and over again? In the case of this thread, in an obvious attempt to create controversies/enmities among the fans of present and past skaters? Don't blame me. If you can't get it (although I think you do get it), look at muse****'s post #12 as an example. Let's not play innocent and ignorant.
    Oh dear God. Can you just shut up for once?!! You're like an atomic time bomb and stop embarrassing the rest of Yuna fans on this board even more.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    How the heck is Anett Poetzsch not winning this poll. OK I admit I dont like her skating at all, but this isnt even about the deemed leading skater herself as much as who they competed against (unless I am misinterpreting this thread) and that was such a sucky bad era at the very top with boring Poetzsch, boring Fratianne, and ultra boring Lurz hogging all the podiums. Poetzsch herself had to bomb like she did at the 77 and 79 Worlds to lose since Fratianne was so much weaker than her in figures, and not outstanding enough in free skating herself to make up all the difference even vs Anett's moderately good (at best) free skating. She won the Olympics despite not doing her best in any of the 3 phases, and bombing the short program, and her chief rival (Fratianne) skating her absolute best, and then won another Worlds to end her career despite bombing both the short and long there with her worst skates of the season (though she did her best in figures unlike the Games) so that says something to her competition. There was none.

    I know Schuba won competitions more easily than Poetzsch because of figures but her figures were other wordly and the best ever, which I never heard anyone say about Poetzsch, just excellent and the best in the World at figures at the time but nothing historic. Plus Schuba and her figures were able to win her competitions over a stellar group of skaters like Lynn, Holmes, Magnussen, Morgenstram, Seyfert, and the rest, not dull generic good skaters like Fratianne and Lurz.
    I agree with this, and don't know why anyone would choose Kwan over Poetzsch for this. Granted she was post figures era but Kwan had to deal with Chen, Bobek, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Cohen, Hughes, Suguri, Kostner etc..

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I agree with this, and don't know why anyone would choose Kwan over Poetzsch for this. Granted she was post figures era but Kwan had to deal with Chen, Bobek, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Cohen, Hughes, Suguri, Kostner etc..
    And Arakawa, too.

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