View Poll Results: Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

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  • Anett Pootosh

    27 13.78%
  • Michelle Kwan

    51 26.02%
  • Kim Yu Na

    16 8.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 3.06%
  • Rosalynn Summer

    11 5.61%
  • Katarina Witt

    5 2.55%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 1.02%
  • Midori Ito

    2 1.02%
  • Oksana Baiul

    37 18.88%
  • Dorothy Hamill

    15 7.65%
  • Peggy Fleming

    16 8.16%
  • Trixi Schubert

    8 4.08%
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  1. #201
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    Lets be real people. Womens skating didnt actually become competitive until the early 80s. People like Fleming, Hamill, Schuba, and Poetzsch/Fratianne had way weaker competition than anyone starting with Witt would have. The two should be broken into two seperate categories, basically who had the least competiton starting in 1980/1981 when it started to become somewhat of a real competition.

    Fleming made 5 mistakes at the 68 Olympics and still won by 20 falls and won the free skate alone by probably another 5 falls so suffice to say she had no competition. Schuba faced some amazing free skaters but her figures gave her such a lead she was always 20 falls from losing. Again no competition.

    Hamill may be the first ever to have some competition since she did lose the 74 and 75 Worlds to two different women. Didnt she screw up 1 or more phase of both events though, so the losses were her own fault. Errath and DeeLeeuuw dont seem like tough competition to me.

    Poetzsch and Fratianne only had each other, and neither was even very good. Poetzsch only lost big events to Fratianne when she fell alot at the 77 and 79 Worlds.

    So it is stupid so many people are voting Kwan and Baiul. Even if they might have had weaker competition than other modern day skaters like Witt, Yamaguchi, Ito, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Kim, and Asada, they still had more than people before the no competition but pretty coronation century before competition days began in the 80s.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Me, neither. Furthermore, Michelle's biggest obstacle was often not the competition but the judges themselves. Even at Nationals, the judges seemed eager to crown Sasha the next figure skating queen--if only Sasha had managed to stay on her feet. Look at Michelle's marks at 2000 Worlds--7 triples including a 3-3 and she got two 5.6s and three 5.7s. Yes, she skated first, but wouldn't 5.8s have left enough room for Irina? Sarah Hughes got 5.8s for tech skating first at SLC, didn't she? And 5.6?? Then there was the judge that gave her a 5.1 for her 2004 short program. Who knew a time deduction was worth that much? And then there were Tara's 5.9s for presentation at Nagano--5.9? Really? The same as Michelle? There is even a case to be made for Michelle placing over Irina's overwrought LP at SLC. At least we can chalk that up to a fall. I halfway suspect, however, the result might have been the same, even if Michelle had not fallen.

    I see when talking about SLC, the blatant overmarking Michelle received in the SP somehow didn't make it into your post? I'm sorry but there is no way that SP deserved that 5.9 it got for required elements from one judge. It wasn't even close to it and wasn't even close to being the best SP of the night.

  3. #203
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    Kwan skated clean and well in the short of the 2002 Olympics but it was not the winning short. The Americans were all overmarked, half American Robinson was overmarked, and the Europeans all undermarked due to location of the event. The results of the short were:

    1. Slutskaya 6.0 elements, 5.8 presentation
    2. Butyrskaya 5.8 elements, 5.9 presentation
    3. Suguri 5.8 elements, 5.8 presentation
    4. Sebeysten 5.8 elements, 5.5 presentation
    5. Cohen 5.6 elements, 5.7 presentation
    6. Kwan 5.5 elements, 5.8 presentation
    7. Gusmeroli 5.5 elements, 5.6 presentation
    8-10. about 3 other skaters
    11. Robinson 5.0 elements, 5.2 presentation
    12-14. about 3 other skater
    15. Hughes 4.5 elements (all her elements except the layback and spiral sucked), 5.1 presentation (gross shoulder rounding parts in corner)


    The Americans had made the rules for the rest of the Games with the pairs event though. Give all Americans and Canadians huge marks, and all Europeans especialy Russians really low marks, or we will have a cow. The judges concurred the rest of the events.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andofanatic View Post
    Kwan skated clean and well in the short of the 2002 Olympics but it was not the winning short. The Americans were all overmarked, half American Robinson was overmarked, and the Europeans all undermarked due to location of the event. The results of the short were:

    1. Slutskaya 6.0 elements, 5.8 presentation
    2. Butyrskaya 5.8 elements, 5.9 presentation
    3. Suguri 5.8 elements, 5.8 presentation
    4. Sebeysten 5.8 elements, 5.5 presentation
    5. Cohen 5.6 elements, 5.7 presentation
    6. Kwan 5.5 elements, 5.8 presentation
    7. Gusmeroli 5.5 elements, 5.6 presentation
    8-10. about 3 other skaters
    11. Robinson 5.0 elements, 5.2 presentation
    12-14. about 3 other skater
    15. Hughes 4.5 elements (all her elements except the layback and spiral sucked), 5.1 presentation (gross shoulder rounding parts in corner)
    Really? You'd better send the correct results off to the IOC and the ISU toot sweet, as they say. I'm sure they'll appreciate your success in investigative journalism, and will re-write the record books accordingly.
    Be with me always—take any form—drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you! Oh, God! it is unutterable! I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!"

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Cupcake was adoreable and sweet, and a strong jumper, but I wouldnt really call her a "personality".
    She wasn't the personality--Dick Button was!

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by orientalplane View Post
    Really? You'd better send the correct results off to the IOC and the ISU toot sweet, as they say. I'm sure they'll appreciate your success in investigative journalism, and will re-write the record books accordingly.

    Personally, I don't even find his marks to be that off.
    Hughes' placing may be a bit too harsh, though

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andofanatic View Post
    The Americans were all overmarked, half American Robinson was overmarked, and the Europeans all undermarked due to location of the event.
    The Americans had made the rules for the rest of the Games with the pairs event though. Give all Americans and Canadians huge marks, and all Europeans especialy Russians really low marks, or we will have a cow. The judges concurred the rest of the events.
    Is that why the American judge placed Michelle third in the long program (after Irina) at SLC?

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Is that why the American judge placed Michelle third in the long program (after Irina) at SLC?

    He could afford that by placing Hughes ahead. In the SP, that judge placed Kwan ahead of Slutskaya (undeserved). Had that judge placed Sluskaya first in the SP, Slutskaya would have won the SP and with the LP won the Gold overall.

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    He could afford that by placing Hughes ahead. In the SP, that judge placed Kwan ahead of Slutskaya (undeserved). Had that judge placed Sluskaya first in the SP, Slutskaya would have won the SP and with the LP won the Gold overall.
    I doubt he had that all planned out in the SP. The point is that the Americans did not pre-determine the judging, as was claimed.

  10. #210
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    Michelle would not have won the short program without an absurd 5.9 for required elements from one judge. Had it not been for that one mark Michelle would not have won the short as that judge already gave Irina 5.8, 5.9 then gave Michelle 5.9, 5.9. Only one other judge even gave Michelle a 5.8 for required elements, and the rest 5.7 or lower. It reminded me alot of the judge who gave Baiul an even more absurd 5.9 for technical merit in the free program, and without that one mark she would not have been the gold medalist and just like the 02 short program that judge had already given Kerrigan 5.8, 5.9; yet people chose to focus unfairly on Hoffmann rather than her.

    I am not sure however whether Irina would have still placed above Michelle in the free skate had the short program results been reversed. I am not even sure the performances would have been the same. Michelle might have come out on fire like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds. Irina probably also would have skated better, since her confidence seems to take a hit whenever she skates fairly well and doesnt win a short program.

  11. #211
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    That's true. Irina gained confidence when she was validated in the short, while Kwan preferred to attack rather than defend.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Michelle would not have won the short program without an absurd 5.9 for required elements from one judge. Had it not been for that one mark Michelle would not have won the short as that judge already gave Irina 5.8, 5.9 then gave Michelle 5.9, 5.9. Only one other judge even gave Michelle a 5.8 for required elements, and the rest 5.7 or lower. It reminded me alot of the judge who gave Baiul an even more absurd 5.9 for technical merit in the free program, and without that one mark she would not have been the gold medalist and just like the 02 short program that judge had already given Kerrigan 5.8, 5.9; yet people chose to focus unfairly on Hoffmann rather than her.
    But that is mostly due to 6.0 system, the mark was used to rank skaters.
    If this judge gave Irina 5.8-5.9 and thought Michelle was better, he needed to give her 5.9-5.9.
    This only if Michelle skated after Irina, and I don't remember that !

  13. #213

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    Yes Michelle was overscored in the short at SLC, but she may have skated a lot better going into the LP in second place. Some of her best skates have been when she was not in 1st in the short program. She always seemed a bit more motivated when she was coming from behind.

    I also agree with Irina skating better when she was in first place, although by the way she skated in the LP, she seemed to have known that Michelle fell in her long program. She was totally skating to not lose. I think that fall messed more with her head then being in second place in the short program.

    So we just cannot sit here and say if Michelle received lower marks in the short program, Irina would have won.

    The only thing I can agree with is that if the short program were scored "correctly", Sarah Hughes would NOT have won. No question.

    I think Michelle skated before Irina but I could be wrong.

  14. #214

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    IIRC, the skate order of the final group was 1) Butyrskaya 2) Hughes 3) Sebestyen 4) Cohen 5) Kwan and 6) Slutskaya.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    The only thing I can agree with is that if the short program were scored "correctly", Sarah Hughes would NOT have won. No question.
    ITA with that part, and I think that is a large reason Hughes victory is not an especialy popular one among skating fans. It is not like she as obviously denied the enormously popular Kwan the gold medal as Tara did in 98, as Kwan denied herself with a fall and unexceptional free skate, and as she was 3rd she might not have won anyway. Tara's victory is far more appreciated than Sarah's despite that she is the one who directly denied the Kween what otherwise would have been an overwhelming and triumphant gold medal victory. Her technical issues which would be hammered under COP can be forgiven by most, as those were generally overlooked around then, but her undeserved 4th place in the short program, and the sheer luck of how the ordinals had to fit in such a perfect (and many ways controversial way) as far as others placings in both programs.

  16. #216
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    Well, I'm afraid all the "what ifs" in the world is not going to change the way they placed. It could have possibly happened in a parallel universe, however.

    falling_dance, I believe that final group order is/was correct.
    Angie
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  17. #217
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    After watching the 83 Worlds and 84 Olympics I would change my vote to Sumners. How did she almost win Olympic Gold with that weak and shady performance. I didnt see the whole event but did everyone else suck. Even her Worlds win gold of performance wasnt that great but it wasnt too bad. Wasnt figures points carryover done by then, so that means she almost won with her free skating, not figures. She popped about 8 jumps into doubles or singles instead of triples and doubles and still was .1 from the Olympic Gold.

  18. #218
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    This is her Olympic skate:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR_lrAuec2M

    She even falls on a single axel it looks like.

  19. #219
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    Why do so many think Baiul had weak competition. She faced Kerrigan, Sato, Chen, Chouinard, and Bonaly all at their very best which makes a very deep field with many strong skaters.

  20. #220
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    I don't think Baiul had weak competition but it could have been better. If all the stars had aligned like almost all thought it would, Kerrigan would have won the 93 world title. Bonaly beat her twice at Euros, but Chouinard never hit 2 semi clean performances in an international competition, her inconsistencies were 10 times worse than Cohen a decade later. Sato was similar. Sato and Chen didn't really hit their peak till later (Sato as a pro and Chen in 95 and 96).

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