View Poll Results: Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

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  • Anett Pootosh

    27 13.78%
  • Michelle Kwan

    51 26.02%
  • Kim Yu Na

    16 8.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 3.06%
  • Rosalynn Summer

    11 5.61%
  • Katarina Witt

    5 2.55%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 1.02%
  • Midori Ito

    2 1.02%
  • Oksana Baiul

    37 18.88%
  • Dorothy Hamill

    15 7.65%
  • Peggy Fleming

    16 8.16%
  • Trixi Schubert

    8 4.08%
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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    And then there were Tara's 5.9s for presentation at Nagano--5.9? Really?
    It's called presentation, not artistry, and I thought on that night, Tara's presentation was better than Michelle's. I agree that her marks at 2000 Worlds were ridiculous, though. Her presentation was on fire that night. I don't think her presentation has ever been better. Plus she was technically better than anyone else too. I think the judges were deluded into thinking Maria and Irina might go clean.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I think the judges were deluded into thinking Maria and Irina might go clean.
    Why wouldnt they think that could happen. Irina had skated clean most of that season, and Maria had been on fire all week in practice and had her best ever short program. It was a surprise both didnt skate better than they did.

    As for Tara's presentation marks in Nagano, the judges are supposed to use the marks as a means to put the skater who they think deserves 1st there. Those judges who gave Michelle 5.8, 5.9 and felt Tara deserved to win overall based on superior technical and speed had to give Tara 5.9, 5.9 given the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. I doubt any judge actually thought Tara was better in artistic. Every single judge had them tied or lower on the 2nd mark. They just did as they were supposed to, use it to put the skater who they thought deserved to win that night 1st.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    Why wouldnt they think that could happen. Irina had skated clean most of that season, and Maria had been on fire all week in practice and had her best ever short program.
    Irina skated clean MOST of the season? I really don't recall her skating clean nearly every competition that year. And Maria typically left her best on the practice ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    I doubt any judge actually thought Tara was better in artistic.
    Maybe, maybe not. But presentation is the name of the second mark, not artistry. And I'd have given Tara a 5.9 for presentation.

    TL - 5.9., 59
    MK - 5.7,5.8

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. But presentation is the name of the second mark, not artistry. And I'd have given Tara a 5.9 for presentation.

    TL - 5.9., 59
    MK - 5.7,5.8
    Lyra Angelica was such a complete and well-constructed program. Her presentation was fantastic.

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I think the battle between them remained warm and friendly-- though highly neurotic--throughout the season because the two had spent so many years not being rivals. Their individual neuroses produced the irony that neither of them would take the Olympic Gold medal. Perhaps if it had been a more heated rivalry, where one or both really wanted nothing more than to deny the other of the Gold, it might have helped them competitively.
    I have a hard time believing that Irina did not go to every competition intending to be the winner and the star of the competition for every competition she entered, including every competition where Kwan was the favorite as far back as Jr competition. However, Irina did have the psychological barrier of being a Russian lady, which was the figure skating equivalent of being a barren women. Given her OGM potential, the silver at the 2002 Olympics was a disappointment although still a milestone for Russian Ladies Figure Skating, right up there with Ivanova's Olympic Bronze and Butryskaya's World Championship.

    I really think Michelle was motivated by "just doing her best" and showing she could be "perfect"; it was not about what others did. This is why she always performed cautiously when she actually cared about winning.

    Of course, they were both were overtaken by Tara, who Irina famously confronted in an elevator at 1996 Worlds by saying, "You are not supposed to be here," to which Tara replied, "YES, I AM!!!". Tara, as a competitor, really wanted to be better than everybody else, and was disgusted with anything less. I really think this disgust, which is often described as "hating to loose", that brought her over the top because it was a more powerful motivator than the affirmative "I want to be the winner" or the goal of a personal best.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-25-2013 at 01:03 AM.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Of course, they were both were overtaken by Tara, who Irina famously confronted in an elevator at the 1996 Worlds by saying, "You are not supposed to be here," to which Tara replied, "YES, I AM!!!". Tara, as a competitor, really wanted to be better than everybody else, and was disgusted with anything less.
    Does anyone have a source for this quote? I'm far from a Slutskaya fan but I've never seen a quote.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Lyra Angelica was such a complete and well-constructed program. Her presentation was fantastic.
    I stand proudly and stubbornly by my Nagano marks.

  8. #188
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyz2Yei1-WM

    Peter Carruthers mentions it at 1:45

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I am still amazed at the low number of votes for Poetzsch. I challenge anyone to watch a series of tapes from the 77 Worlds, 79 Worlds, 80 Olympics (and keep in mind watching Biellmann's wonderful free skating she sucked at figures in a major way so was not a competitive factor of any kind before 81), 80 Worlds and vote anyone else. Poetzsch's biggest rival was Fratianne who was weak at figures and a zzzz free skater (although she still never lost to the mediocre Poetzsch in a short or long program ever after 76). Her second biggest rival was Dagmur Lurz who was a semi decent figures specialist who Poetzsch never lost to in figures, and a ghastly Lurch from Addams Family free skater, yet still made most major podiums this period with that level of skating.
    Agreed. Poetzch was quite weak, and probably as strong of a skater as Hughes for her era.

    I find this 'weakest competition' question misleading. Often, a skater has a strong competition for two almost opposing reasons. Is it because the skater in question wasn't that strong, so the rest of the competition was consistently scored at a close level? Or is it because the rest of the field was actually strong?

    People may look at Baiul and Poetzch's eras, see the closely-debated results, and conclude these were competitive eras for them. However, this speaks more about Baiul and Poetzch's actual level then how strong their competition was. Kerrigan, Bonaly, Fratianne, Lurz, etc. weren't particularly strong competition and didn't really push the sport forward. They are all strong, respectable skaters in the grand scheme, but competition wise, not so much.

    And how do we define strong competition? Maybe by how much a quad's top skaters push skating to progress, through a combination of technical or artistic feats and/or strong consistency?

  10. #190

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    Despite how cautiously Lurz skated ALL THE TIME, it is worth noting that she did have a consistent 3Loop, which is probably what got her the World Silver.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Lyra Angelica was such a complete and well-constructed program. Her presentation was fantastic.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Despite how cautiously Lurz skated ALL THE TIME, it is worth noting that she did have a consistent 3Loop, which is probably what got her the World Silver.
    Looking at her performances that others have posted it looks like all she had were jumps. Really slow spins, poor basic skating, no elegance or style, and small jumps with not good quality or speed.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyz2Yei1-WM

    Peter Carruthers mentions it at 1:45
    Oh no, you made me watch part of that program again after me swearing I'd never sit through it again. Thanks for the source. How rude. It's also since Slutskaya looked like an 8 year old that year. I recall her dismissing her loss to Asada in a rather unsportsmanlike reply too.

  14. #194
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    Slutskaya was a gross and vile skater and one of the most overrated in history. I think many voting down Kwan's competition it is because they are not impressed with Slutskaya and she was Kwan's main competitor most of her career. So it isnt really a diss on Kwan herself, but on Slutskaya her main "competition".

  15. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    I think the 1996-2006 period was the most uninspiring overall period of womens skating ever.
    Funny, because I consider that the "golden age" of ladies skating: Michelle, Tara, Irina, Maria, Sasha, Sarah, Cupcake, Baby Ballerinas--and Dick and Peggy. It doesn't get much better than that.

  16. #196
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    You lost me at Sarah and Cupcake. Sokolova? Really? I think one's "golden age" can be traced more back to a person's age at the time of the skating than the actual skating.

  17. #197

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    I do think Cupcake's 2006 LP was one of the more inspired ones that season with one of the best choreographed FW sequences. That said, she wouldn't be in the top of that era for me even though I did think her 3/3s and bubbly personality was great to see in 2003.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Funny, because I consider that the "golden age" of ladies skating: Michelle, Tara, Irina, Maria, Sasha, Sarah, Cupcake, Baby Ballerinas--and Dick and Peggy. It doesn't get much better than that.
    Its a little odd because you have ceetain people saying 1995-2006 was the weakest era in ladies skating, but you also have alot of people saying 1974-1981 was the worst. I think the 89-94 era was the strongest, it started with the decline of the Europeans (and the end of East Germany) and ended with the resurgence of some former USSR skaters (Baiul)

  19. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    You lost me at Sarah and Cupcake. Sokolova? Really? I think one's "golden age" can be traced more back to a person's age at the time of the skating than the actual skating.
    I'm including personalities, rivalries and drama along with skating abilities. If based purely on skating, it's still the golden age to me if only because of Michelle and all of those who tried to knock her off her throne.

  20. #200
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    Cupcake was adoreable and sweet, and a strong jumper, but I wouldnt really call her a "personality".

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