View Poll Results: Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

Voters
196. You may not vote on this poll
  • Anett Pootosh

    27 13.78%
  • Michelle Kwan

    51 26.02%
  • Kim Yu Na

    16 8.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 3.06%
  • Rosalynn Summer

    11 5.61%
  • Katarina Witt

    5 2.55%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 1.02%
  • Midori Ito

    2 1.02%
  • Oksana Baiul

    37 18.88%
  • Dorothy Hamill

    15 7.65%
  • Peggy Fleming

    16 8.16%
  • Trixi Schubert

    8 4.08%
Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112
Results 221 to 227 of 227
  1. #221
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    356
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    After watching the 83 Worlds and 84 Olympics I would change my vote to Sumners. How did she almost win Olympic Gold with that weak and shady performance. I didnt see the whole event but did everyone else suck. Even her Worlds win gold of performance wasnt that great but it wasnt too bad. Wasnt figures points carryover done by then, so that means she almost won with her free skating, not figures. She popped about 8 jumps into doubles or singles instead of triples and doubles and still was .1 from the Olympic Gold.
    Sumners was the class of the field at the 83 worlds after Zayak withdrew , the only other skater who was in her league was Witt.

  2. #222
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    22
    Posts
    12,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Anyone from 1968 to earlier had weaker competition than anyone after 1968. That is what makes this poll and its options so silly to begin with. Weakest competition would be someone like Sonja Henie who win 13 World and Olympic titles in a row. That cant happen no matter how great you are unless you face literally nothing almost your whole career (I know she faced Colledge who is a great skater her final year, and Szabo her first year winning, and that is all). Peggy Fleming could have sat on the ice for 3 minutes, did 2 single toes, and still won the 68 Olympic Gold after the figures, so her competition was incredibly poor too. Everything in between all that was probably no better. Madge Syers found her competition so weak she got bored and decided to enter the Mens Championship one year.

    In modern times the weakest era was definitely the Fratianne-Poetzsch one though. Both mediocre skaters who were the cream of a crop who were either lovely but weak in figures, or even more mediocre than they were.

  3. #223
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    22
    Posts
    12,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I am not saying there werent many amazing skaters before 1968, just almost never more than one at a time.

    Syers in the 1900s, Szabo in the early to mid 20s, Henie in the early to mid 30s, Colledge and Taylor in the late 30s, Albright in the mid 50s, Heiss in the late 50s, and Fleming in the late 60s. Colledge and Taylor would have been the greatest rivalry in pre World War 11 days had it not been for the war.

  4. #224
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    600
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I don't think Baiul had weak competition but it could have been better. If all the stars had aligned like almost all thought it would, Kerrigan would have won the 93 world title. Bonaly beat her twice at Euros, but Chouinard never hit 2 semi clean performances in an international competition, her inconsistencies were 10 times worse than Cohen a decade later. Sato was similar. Sato and Chen didn't really hit their peak till later (Sato as a pro and Chen in 95 and 96).
    Every era had lots of skaters who underperformed though. Who did Kwan face who was consistent. Only Lipinski and she retired at 15. Slutskaya is considered the next most consistent skater and when you think about it even she is a choker in big events. The only times she skated close to her best was the 2002 and 2005 Worlds, both which she won over Kwan.

    Some Kwan fans in this thread mocked Baiul by saying her chief rival was Kerrigan. Well Kwan's chief rival was Slutskaya who isnt even considered a top 20 skater all time today either. Apart from Lipinski 97-98 and Slutskaya 2000-2002, everybody Baiul faced- Sato, Kerrigan, Chen, Chouinard, Bonaly, were all better than anyone else Kwan faced. Those skaters are all better than Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Sokolova, and the rest. Chen is credited as Kwan's competition and not Baiul's but it was Baiul who faced much more of Chen in her prime than Kwan. Kwan faced Chen at her best competition ever- 1996 Worlds, but apart from that one instance, Chen skated better probably about 10 times in 93-94 when Baiul dominated than she ever did from fall 95 onwards when Kwan era began.


    I would say Baiul's competition > Kwan's overall, but neither should be the choice. So many skaters had worse competition than both. Kim getting any votes is the biggest joke. She had by far the hardest competition ever. Why do people only consider people the last 20 years? Anyone who knows about the sports history should know the sport is far more competitive in the post figures era than it ever was before, and in the days figures were 50-60% there was literally no competitive element at all. Fleming won the 68 Olympics by something like 130 points with a horrible performance, how can Baiul and Kwan and any modern day skater no have much tougher competition than her and the other old timers.

  5. #225
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    600
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Say what you want, but 1996 Worlds, 1998 Olympics, and 2001 Worlds provided some of the best top two ladies performances in terms of technical difficulty and in the case of 1996 and even 1998, technical difficulty plus artistic merit.

    Other than those years, In 1997, Tara wins with 7 triples including a 3Loop/3Loop and a double axel/half loop/Triple Sal. Kwan won the LP with 6 triples, a 3/3, and great choreography.

    The World Champion in 1999 landed 7 triple jumps with a 3/3 sequence and the silver medalist landed 6 with some messy landings.

    2000, high level in the SP and in the LP, Kwan won with 7 triples and a 3/3 with Slute following with 6, and two inspired performances by Bute and Gusmeroli.

    2001, high level of skating with Kwan 7 triples and a 3/3, Slute having an ambitious routine with an attempt at a 3/3/2 and another 3/3, Bute 6 triples with a 3/3 sequence, and Hughes 7 triples with a 3/3.

    SLC was somewhat disappointing, but Kwan is considered a choke when she still landed 5 triple jumps (whereas some one like Yamaguchi won her gold with that many triples and a hand-down on the Salchow and let's not talk about Baiul and Witt). 2002 Worlds, Kwan and Slute both performed 6 triples and I believe Fumie had a solid performance. Yes, some of the skaters on the list are highly preferable to Hughes and Suguri and even Bute, but they were capable of a lot of triple jumps and had to compete with the Kwan package and the Irina speed and power. Not easy at all.

    2003 weaker, but not bad if the silver medalist did 7 triples and 2 3/3 even if the rest of her skating wasn't too great.

    2004, Arakawa 2 3/3s and 7 triples altogether. People make fun of Cohen's consistency, but I believe she tended to land at least 5 triples.

    In Kwan's era, you needed all five triples and consistently land at least 6 to beat her in the LP and that had better come after a clean SP and QR (at Worlds). That's not something I'd call a weak era. People say Bute and Suguri and Hughes would have been laughed at in other eras, but I don't see how they're so much worse than Jill Trenary, Oksana Baiul, Surya Bonaly, inconsistent Yuka Sato, Dagmar Lurz, Tiffany Chin, Kira Ivanova, Annette Poestch, Linda Fratianne, Rosalynn Sumners, etc.
    It seems you are saying the Kwan era was better since people did more triples than before. Each era has more triples than the last though. Would you say Suguri is better than Fleming since she does 6 triples a program and Fleming does 0. It is just like today they do more triple combinations than ever and some women attempt 8 triples which never happened before, and also do the really hard spins and steps never done before, but does that make it better automatically? Not neccessarily, it just shows difficulty also naturally evolves over time. Someone like Suguri who is just a good skater, born at a time she skated in an era no women did triples wouldn't do any either. We know from her own era she would never do something groundbreaking in any era.

    As for comparing Kristi in Albertville to Michelle in Salt Lake City, Kristi was much better. She did a triple-triple toe vs a two footed triple toe-double toe that Kwan did, and artistically her program that year was much better than Kwan's Scheherezade which was like her most boring program ever along with Bolero. Kristi from 92 Olympics probably would have been good enough to beat Hughes in Salt Lake City.

  6. #226
    Blergh
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,302
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    17257
    Why not? That's the same arguments people make about why Kim is so much better than say Sonja Henie who clearly dominated her field. My use of triples was to show how much more jumping content (and jumps were not enough to overtake Slutskaya and Kwan in their era) one needed to be competitive. I'm not saying that my rationale is arguing that Suguri (a bronze medalist-level skater in her prime or close to her prime and a top 10-13 past her prime...not counting her continuance past 2010) is a better skater than Peggy Flemming is disingenuous as I was only saying that as a group, the level of skating in the Kwan era was strong. As for skaters having more triples every generation, that certainly has not been consistently true post-2006. Although, I am also not taking into account the role COP has played in that.

    And as Kristi's Albertville performance being enough to beat Hughes LP outright . . . it's speculative, but I doubt it. Now here's the totally subjective part (that you invited in when talking about Kristi's program being more artistic than Kwan's), I found Kristi's amateur routines absolutely generic and void of any real expression or musicality. I do think, however, that she had great transitions. However, the choreography themselves aren't anything special. As blah as Kwan's Scheherezade ended up being, Kwan sold the routine, IMO. I mean obviously some people liked it (see Yu Na Kim's 2008-2009 LP).
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 09-19-2013 at 08:32 PM.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #227
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    356
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    The problem with comparing Chen in Baiuls era and then in 95 and 96, is that Chen was not at her peak then. Tehnically her jumps were great, she was consistent, and had nice artistry, but I don't think the judges saw her on the same level some of the fans did. When Chen debuted her Mendelsohn Sp and Last Emperor program it was almost like a brand new skater. Everything about her skating got bigger- her lines, her speed and even her jumps. She had a real command on the ice, that skating fans always talk about when they about her Rach program at worlds. Chen SHOULD have been a closer competitor to Baiul, just based on her consistency alone, but she really didn't have enough "ummph" to her skating yet or the political clout.

Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •