View Poll Results: Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

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  • Anett Pootosh

    27 13.78%
  • Michelle Kwan

    51 26.02%
  • Kim Yu Na

    16 8.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 3.06%
  • Rosalynn Summer

    11 5.61%
  • Katarina Witt

    5 2.55%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 1.02%
  • Midori Ito

    2 1.02%
  • Oksana Baiul

    37 18.88%
  • Dorothy Hamill

    15 7.65%
  • Peggy Fleming

    16 8.16%
  • Trixi Schubert

    8 4.08%
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  1. #121

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    With her 3/3 combos and like all triples she wasn't elevated to be an opponent she demanded those wins! Rarely has someone come along ever with such hard jumps. Midori could've done It earlier but figures held her back but there were no figures to hold Lipinski back.

  2. #122
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    It is funny depending how you twist it around one could say any of these skaters on the list had great or weak competition. It makes it purely subjective and basically around to which era had more skaters you liked or not I guess.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree with all you said, and Tara rising to the top in 1997 did show the huge vaccum at the time. She wasnt popular at all with skating experts, fans, not even judges (most of her scores were very low for a winner), but she rose to the top almost by default.
    I could see a case for Michelle winning 96 or 97 Champion Series Final over Tara but she didn't. Gusmeroli deserved to beat Tara in the short at worlds but didn't. Irina could have beaten Tara in the long at 97 worlds without much controversy but didn't. I think the judges liked Tara a lot. So no, I can't agree with the winning by default theory.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I could see a case for Michelle winning 96 or 97 Champion Series Final over Tara but she didn't.
    Michelle didn't even have the chance to compete against Tara at the '98 season Champion Series Final because of the stress fracture on her toe. She made it to the final, but withdrew before the event began due to injury. Tanja Szewczenko finished 2nd to Tara. Michelle won the '96 season Champion Series Final; Tara was not at that final. The one CSF the two did meet in the '97 season, Tara finished 1st and Michelle was 2nd. I'm not sure how you are coming up with your theory that Tara defeated Michelle at the CSF twice.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Michelle didn't even have the chance to compete against Tara at the '98 season Champion Series Final because of the stress fracture on her toe. She made it to the final, but withdrew before the event began due to injury. Tanja Szewczenko finished 2nd to Tara. Michelle won the '96 season Champion Series Final; Tara was not at that final. The one CSF the two did meet in the '97 season, Tara finished 1st and Michelle was 2nd. I'm not sure how you are coming up with your theory that Tara defeated Michelle at the CSF twice.
    Sorry for the confusion. I meant that I couldnt remember if the CSF Tara won was held in 96 or 97. I didnt mean both years.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I could see a case for Michelle winning 96 or 97 Champion Series Final over Tara but she didn't. Gusmeroli deserved to beat Tara in the short at worlds but didn't. Irina could have beaten Tara in the long at 97 worlds without much controversy but didn't. I think the judges liked Tara a lot. So no, I can't agree with the winning by default theory.

    I hope you dont mind me cutting into this debate.

    Michelle wasnt even at the 97-98 season Champions Series Final. That Kwan could have won the 96-97 Champions Series Final over a perfect Tara without controversy (which I agree on) with a opened up in mid air/fall no 2nd jump combo disaester in the short; and a fall on a triple loop, a hands down triple flip, and two footed double axel in the long, only goes to show the earlier point Tara was not that good yet (not that well liked by the skating establishment). That nobody besides Tara was even close to beating Michelle at that event with those performances, also goes along with the previous posters point of the depthless womens field at the time, and for a few years more to come.

    Gusmeroli was a total nobody before the 97 Worlds. I hadnt even heard of her before that event. That even with her excellent performance she took 4 judges off pre Worlds title favorite Tara was remarkable and telling enough in itself, along with that it was possible for her to finish that highly regardless how well she skated.

    Had nearly all the top 10 from the 96 Worlds not fallen apart Tara would not have risen to the top at all that season, or even been close. Especialy the top 3 who had they held their form Tara wouldnt have touched yet. Slutskaya was already slumping and struggling that fall and still beat Tara 3 times, before getting even worse in the winter, and Tara gaining rep value with her win over Kwan at Nationals. In the SP at Nationals, Tonia Kwiatkowski ranked only 8th in the World lost a 5-4 split in the short program vs a clean Tara, which is a pretty good indication where Tara would have been slated if the entire top 10 of 96 werent all gone or struggling that year. Maria should have been given more of a look that year but he judges hated her always, and she didnt land a clean triple lutz in the long all year, always a hand down or some problem with the key jump.

    She won the short program at Worlds with like 6 marks of 5.5, which is almost unheard of. It was the huge vacuum at the top as Ironlady said that made her unexpectedly fast rise to the top possible.
    Last edited by butyrskafanatic; 06-10-2013 at 12:41 AM.

  7. #127
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    I don't mind you butting in but it would be nice if you read the posts that preceded yours. And Tara wasn't perfect at that CSF.

    Gusmeroli was remarkable at 97 world short, that she didn't beat Tara who was good is more telling. The judges liked Tara and that they kept her in first by not letting Slute beat her in the long cemented it. They had chances to keep her out of first in the short and then overall but didn't. They liked her.
    Last edited by fenway2; 06-10-2013 at 05:16 AM.

  8. #128

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    I think three judges did end up having Slutskaya placing higher than Tara, after six judges placed Kwan over Tara. I don't know how true this is, but the story was that most of the judges couldn't put Slute in-between Michelle and Tara because they scored them so closely. Therefore they had to either place Slute first or third.

    Either way, the judges did like Tara as evidenced with her CSF win and placing first in the SP and high in the LP. Just because at the time they seemed to prefer Michelle or another skater doesn't mean that they didn't like Tara. We all saw how much they liked her in Nagano.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think three judges did end up having Slutskaya placing higher than Tara, after six judges placed Kwan over Tara. I don't know how true this is, but the story was that most of the judges couldn't put Slute in-between Michelle and Tara because they scored them so closely. Therefore they had to either place Slute first or third.

    Either way, the judges did like Tara as evidenced with her CSF win and placing first in the SP and high in the LP. Just because at the time they seemed to prefer Michelle or another skater doesn't mean that they didn't like Tara. We all saw how much they liked her in Nagano.
    When you say "the story was," what do you mean by that? I was online back then and subscribed to all the US skating magazines and never heard any "story." How on earth would anyone know what the collective judges wanted to do? By the way, all three ladies received three first place votes. Kwan won the long program simply by virtue of receiving the most second place votes, so it's not like Michelle slam dunked Tara (or Irina) for that matter in the long, another point that judges liked Tara quite fine. I wouldn't have blinked had Michelle beat Tara on every judge's care, as I thought Michelle was the best that night, but she didn't.

    Yeah, I forgot to mention Nagano. Good point. Duh on my part.
    Last edited by fenway2; 06-10-2013 at 06:12 AM.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    When you say "the story was," what do you mean by that? I was online back then and subscribed to all the skating magazines and never heard any "Story." How on earth would anyone know what the collective judges wanted to do?

    Yeah, I forgot to mention Nagano. Good point. Duh on my part.
    I remembering hearing that story on FSW, FSU, Skate Forum, and in Christine Brennan's book, Edge of Glory. All three are as "reliable" as you can imagine anonymous heresy, musings, and Christine Brennan can be. I should have put "a story" instead of "the story" but it was out there.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    With her 3/3 combos and like all triples she wasn't elevated to be an opponent she demanded those wins! Rarely has someone come along ever with such hard jumps. Midori could've done It earlier but figures held her back but there were no figures to hold Lipinski back.
    She did- but she would have never been able to maintain that level of skating even if her career lasted two or three more years. So while I do find it admirable, she was a 14 year old who weighed like 80 pounds who retired before she even hit puberty.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    She did- but she would have never been able to maintain that level of skating even if her career lasted two or three more years. So while I do find it admirable, she was a 14 year old who weighed like 80 pounds who retired before she even hit puberty.
    And now Tara is a 31 year old who weighs 82 pounds.

    I agree with you though. She probably wouldn't have sustained her harder jump combinations had she stayed eligible, but I couldn't resist. She's still so tiny.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    And now Tara is a 31 year old who weighs 82 pounds.

    I agree with you though. She probably wouldn't have sustained her harder jump combinations had she stayed eligible, but I couldn't resist. She's still so tiny.
    LOL well that is true. Actually as I wrote that i thought to myself "did she hit puberty yet?" haha.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    She did- but she would have never been able to maintain that level of skating even if her career lasted two or three more years. So while I do find it admirable, she was a 14 year old who weighed like 80 pounds who retired before she even hit puberty.
    Yeah I don't say she would have had any longevity just that she took all she could while she could!!

    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    I hope you dont mind me cutting into this debate.

    Michelle wasnt even at the 97-98 season Champions Series Final. That Kwan could have won the 96-97 Champions Series Final over a perfect Tara without controversy (which I agree on) with a opened up in mid air/fall no 2nd jump combo disaester in the short; and a fall on a triple loop, a hands down triple flip, and two footed double axel in the long, only goes to show the earlier point Tara was not that good yet (not that well liked by the skating establishment). That nobody besides Tara was even close to beating Michelle at that event with those performances, also goes along with the previous posters point of the depthless womens field at the time, and for a few years more to come.

    Gusmeroli was a total nobody before the 97 Worlds. I hadnt even heard of her before that event. That even with her excellent performance she took 4 judges off pre Worlds title favorite Tara was remarkable and telling enough in itself, along with that it was possible for her to finish that highly regardless how well she skated.

    Had nearly all the top 10 from the 96 Worlds not fallen apart Tara would not have risen to the top at all that season, or even been close. Especialy the top 3 who had they held their form Tara wouldnt have touched yet. Slutskaya was already slumping and struggling that fall and still beat Tara 3 times, before getting even worse in the winter, and Tara gaining rep value with her win over Kwan at Nationals. In the SP at Nationals, Tonia Kwiatkowski ranked only 8th in the World lost a 5-4 split in the short program vs a clean Tara, which is a pretty good indication where Tara would have been slated if the entire top 10 of 96 werent all gone or struggling that year. Maria should have been given more of a look that year but he judges hated her always, and she didnt land a clean triple lutz in the long all year, always a hand down or some problem with the key jump.

    She won the short program at Worlds with like 6 marks of 5.5, which is almost unheard of. It was the huge vacuum at the top as Ironlady said that made her unexpectedly fast rise to the top possible.
    If she jumped like all the people failing around her she wouldn't have gotten anywhere! She was so superior in jumps to the people around her. The judges couldn't hold her back! She was just too superior!

  15. #135

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    Does it matter if they still won?

  16. #136
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    Of those girls from best competition to worst:

    1, Kim
    2. Ito
    3. Yamaguchi
    4. Shuba (I assume Schubert means Schuba)
    5. Sumners
    6. Baiul
    7. Hamill
    8. Poetzsch
    9. Kwan
    10. Slutskaya
    11. Fleming

    The 10 people who voted for Kim are total morons. Kim had by far the hardest competition of any skater ever.

  17. #137
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    Poetzsch had harder competition then Kwan did? Are you kidding?

  18. #138
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    Poetzsch had to compete against Fratianne and Biellmann who I consider a better skaters than Slutskaya, who is by far the best person Kwan ever faced. So yeah if forced to choose between them I think Poetzsch had more competition. This isnt about who was the best skater but who had harder competition. Of course Kwan is a better skater than Poetzsch but that isnt the thread topic. Anyway switch them on my list if you want, but either way both are near the bottom.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Sorry for the confusion. I meant that I couldnt remember if the CSF Tara won was held in 96 or 97. I didnt mean both years.
    Michelle won the 96 CSF.

    Tara actually the CSF twice in 97, early in 97 she defeated MK and later in 97 with no MK.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    Of those girls from best competition to worst:

    1, Kim
    2. Ito
    3. Yamaguchi
    4. Shuba (I assume Schubert means Schuba)
    5. Sumners
    6. Baiul
    7. Hamill
    8. Poetzsch
    9. Kwan
    10. Slutskaya
    11. Fleming

    The 10 people who voted for Kim are total morons. Kim had by far the hardest competition of any skater ever.
    I disagree. Kim arguably faced better SKATERS, but not better competitors. Asada and Kostner are incredibly talented and great if they are on, but they hardly ever skate well in both portions of the competition. Let's examine the seasons Kim participated in:

    2007 - Ando won overall because both Kim and Asada had major mistakes in one portion of the competition.
    2008 - Asada won, but not with the best FP. Kim fell in the SP.
    2009 - Kim skates lights out in the SP, but had a fall in the LP. The rest of the competition was alright but not amazing.
    2010 - Yes, the Olympics was a tough competition. I'll agree to that. But not Worlds - Worlds that year was fairly open but Kim did not materialize.
    2011 - Kim lost to a subpar Ando and in a generally very weak field.

    I also disagree about Yamaguchi. While she faced Ito and Harding who were amazing skaters (one of them iconic and legendary), neither were the best competitors. There's a reason she won the Olympics with two major mistakes.

    And Baiul..better competition than Kwan? Baiul's main competition was Bonaly and Kerrigan, neither whom I consider to be particularly top skaters. I suppose if you mean Baiul faced competition because she had very close results with her competitors, that speaks more about Baiul's lower skating level compared to the likes of Yamaguchi and Kwan, then about the high level of her competitors.

    Imagine if Kwan made one fall in the FP during one of the years she won Worlds. She would easily have lost 1996, 2000, and 2001. 2003 would have been close with Sokolova, but I think the judges would've still given the nod though it could maybe go either way.

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