View Poll Results: Most overscored ever in mens singles

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  • Elvis Stojko

    37 16.74%
  • Patrick Chan

    83 37.56%
  • Vladimir Kovalev

    1 0.45%
  • Scott Hamilton

    13 5.88%
  • Evgeny Plushenko

    31 14.03%
  • Alexei Yagudin

    0 0%
  • Kurt Browning

    5 2.26%
  • Stephane Lambiel

    4 1.81%
  • Wolfgang Schwarz

    2 0.90%
  • Emmerich Danzer

    3 1.36%
  • Evan Lysacek

    39 17.65%
  • Viktor Petrenko

    3 1.36%
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  1. #41
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    The most overscored skaters were under 6.0 because the ISU in every cycle selected the 1-4 skaters in each discipline that they felt could represent the sport the best and held them up through the cycle. Plus there was much less transparency in the scoring as there was today. I wish we had more visibility to figures judging because that's where the skaters got slotted.

    I remember Toller Cranston being interviewed after he retired. He asked a judge point plank on a flight if a little Romanian girl laid down the most glorious figures you had ever seen would you place her near the top and without hesitation the judge said "no way".

    There isn't much yelping about overscoring under 6.0 because the skaters that were 'selected' were popular. Hamilton is the perfect example. I love love love watching this guy but he doesn't spin well and his jumping repertoire would only be considered 'competitive' in the ladies event.

    I'd love to see the jump detail of everyone in Sarajevo in SP and LP. In his short he did 2L+3T and one of his spins was so slow it put him behind the music. Guys were doing lutz combos at that time. His LP had a lutz and 2-3 other triples that were only salchows and toes. I think if we broke it all down he likely wouldn't have been on the podium. But he was crowned before he even arrived in Europe...or as Cranston often said, 'why don't we save a lot of money and have the judges fax the results in in advance'?

  2. #42

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    I think overrated is often very much in the eye of the beholder.

    That is - there have been some relatively clear times when skaters have been overrated due to reputation - and I agree with Rock2 that this happened even more in 6.0 - but it does happen in IJS as well.

    There have been many times under IJS when skaters' PCS has been blanket marked with skaters being overmarked in some categories due to strength in others or undermarked in some categories due to weaknesses in others.

    However, a great number of the cries of "overmarked!" / "undermarked!" are connected so tightly to our own personal preferences that it becomes difficult to step back a bit and be objective.

    I think one of the clearest examples for me is the 2010 Olympics Men's free program. My dream would have been for Takahashi to win, or if not him then Lambiel but instead 2 of the skaters who are not my favourites to watch came 1st and 2nd. But sitting in my seat watching I begrudgingly had to admit that they deserved their medals and their placements. For me Lysacek is not the most exciting and I don't believe his performance - but he did what he needed to to win that night. He deserved it and he deserved the PCS marks even though his style is not my personal preference. And Plushenko - despite less than intricate choreography and some less than solid landings - deserved to be 2nd. A healthy and consistent Takahashi would have beaten them - and knowing that also made me at ease with the placements.

    Some people will not like Plushenko and will claim he is way overmarked in PCS because of his choreography. I am not a huge fan of much of his choreo - but I absolutely have to admit that he is one hell of a performer. Even if it is a bit cheesy sometimes or gyratey he sells it like crazy and deserves to be awarded for that.

    Some people absolutely love him for everything he offers - including his athleticism and performance and confidence and claim that he is undermarked

    This is just one example to illustrate the point that IMO undermarking and overmarking is not as prevalent as some would suggest.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    We SHOULD run a poll on ourselves - WHO IS THE MOST PURPLE POSTER!
    Winner's prize.
    OMG I need this so badly, what can I do to win it?

    More seriously though I didn't vote because 1) there are three skaters on that list I never saw compete, and 2) it's difficult to compare 6.0 and COP inflation, IMO

    I'd argue that a lot of Euros/ 4CC/ Worlds medal winners have had their artistic note or PCs inflated to some extent at one point or another. Out of the list above, I feel Plushenko has been overscored in PCs quite a bit (at least in CH as well as in TR, and his artistic mark before COP was sometimes overly generous) but at the same time, I am not sure that the podiums would have been that different had these marks been adjusted (I'd need to go through all the protocols but from memory, there is no win of his that I remember feeling wrong because of the judges' generosity in that department). The same goes with Lysacek (overall his PCs were never extraordinary anyway)

    In recent years I feel the relative inflation in favor of Chan has been probably more problematic in that it has arguably changed results

  4. #44
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    I think all the votes for Plushenko are crazy. Maybe he got some exagerrated scores at times but he NEVER won an event he didnt deserve to win. He hardly ever, if ever, got a placement at an event he didnt deserve to. IMO those things are mandatory for something who is historically overscored.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Accordion View Post
    I think overrated is often very much in the eye of the beholder.

    That is - there have been some relatively clear times when skaters have been overrated due to reputation - and I agree with Rock2 that this happened even more in 6.0 - but it does happen in IJS as well.

    There have been many times under IJS when skaters' PCS has been blanket marked with skaters being overmarked in some categories due to strength in others or undermarked in some categories due to weaknesses in others.

    However, a great number of the cries of "overmarked!" / "undermarked!" are connected so tightly to our own personal preferences that it becomes difficult to step back a bit and be objective.

    I think one of the clearest examples for me is the 2010 Olympics Men's free program. My dream would have been for Takahashi to win, or if not him then Lambiel but instead 2 of the skaters who are not my favourites to watch came 1st and 2nd. But sitting in my seat watching I begrudgingly had to admit that they deserved their medals and their placements. For me Lysacek is not the most exciting and I don't believe his performance - but he did what he needed to to win that night. He deserved it and he deserved the PCS marks even though his style is not my personal preference. And Plushenko - despite less than intricate choreography and some less than solid landings - deserved to be 2nd. A healthy and consistent Takahashi would have beaten them - and knowing that also made me at ease with the placements.

    Some people will not like Plushenko and will claim he is way overmarked in PCS because of his choreography. I am not a huge fan of much of his choreo - but I absolutely have to admit that he is one hell of a performer. Even if it is a bit cheesy sometimes or gyratey he sells it like crazy and deserves to be awarded for that.

    Some people absolutely love him for everything he offers - including his athleticism and performance and confidence and claim that he is undermarked

    This is just one example to illustrate the point that IMO undermarking and overmarking is not as prevalent as some would suggest.
    Well, I like your post. You like other skaters, different styles, different kind of choreography, but you do not say that Plush is not artistic. The skating is very subjective sport, different people different taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    OMG I need this so badly, what can I do to win it?

    More seriously though I didn't vote because 1) there are three skaters on that list I never saw compete, and 2) it's difficult to compare 6.0 and COP inflation, IMO

    I'd argue that a lot of Euros/ 4CC/ Worlds medal winners have had their artistic note or PCs inflated to some extent at one point or another. Out of the list above, I feel Plushenko has been overscored in PCs quite a bit (at least in CH as well as in TR, and his artistic mark before COP was sometimes overly generous) but at the same time, I am not sure that the podiums would have been that different had these marks been adjusted (I'd need to go through all the protocols but from memory, there is no win of his that I remember feeling wrong because of the judges' generosity in that department). The same goes with Lysacek (overall his PCs were never extraordinary anyway)

    In recent years I feel the relative inflation in favor of Chan has been probably more problematic in that it has arguably changed results
    When I saw your name, I thought you will say me, that I'm so biased, and Plush is the most overscored skater ever...or something like this. You didn't do it, what a pleasent surprise.
    You wrote: "his artistic mark before COP was sometimes overly generous"- I would like to show you some videos, when he received some 6.0 for his presentation. And tell me please, why he didn't deserve them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7WXLsJlAiw GPF 2003 he got six 6.0s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw ECH 2001 he beat Yag, he received one 6.0 tech marks and two 6.0s for presentation. And listen to the ES commentators
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aQdGyJQ1cU GPF 2001 second LP Gipsy Dance, we don't know the marks, but he beat Yag, and I hardly believe anybody can say he isn't artistry..
    and so on...
    I don't know you will answer or not, but I'm really curious about your opinion.
    Last edited by lala; 06-02-2013 at 07:05 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    When I saw your name, I thought you will say me, that I'm so biased, and Plush is the most overscored skater ever...or something like this. You didn't do it, what a pleasent surprise.
    You wrote: "his artistic mark before COP was sometimes overly generous"- I would like to show you some videos, when he received some 6.0 for his presentation. And tell me please, why he didn't deserve them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7WXLsJlAiw GPF 2003 he got six 6.0s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw ECH 2001 he beat Yag, he received one 6.0 tech marks and two 6.0s for presentation. And listen to the ES commentators
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aQdGyJQ1cU we don't know the marks, but he beat Yag, and I hardly believe anybody can say he isn't artistry..
    and so on...
    I don't know you will answer or not, but I'm really curious about your opinion.
    lala, to be honest I didn't see your initial post. I won't go into an argument about this with you here, so I'll keep this short

    I think the problem is that you believe that, because I have made quite clear I don't think he's the best at every single aspect of figure skating and he isn't one of my 5 favorite skaters of all times I must really dislike him. And especially because I don't think he's the most artistic of all skaters I must think he has zero artistry. Well, if that's the case, you're wrong on both counts. Which you should know if you've read what I was actually saying and not what you wanted me to say. I've also praised him quite a bit elsewhere but you either happen not to have seen those posts or have a rather selective memory....

    I might entertain you regarding your specific question if I can find the time to watch and analyze but I'll answer in a PM - this is not the place. Please just note that I said "sometimes" - I never wrote that he deserved none of the high marks he got (but you'll probably choose to ignore that as it wouldn't fit with that "Plush-hater" corner you've been trying to paint me in )
    Last edited by rayhaneh; 06-02-2013 at 08:14 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    lala, to be honest I didn't see your initial post. I won't go into an argument about this with you here, so I'll keep this short

    I think the problem is that you believe that, because I have made quite clear I don't think he's the best at every single aspect of figure skating and he isn't one of my 5 favorite skaters of all times I must really dislike him. And especially because I don't think he's the most artistic of all skaters I must think he has zero artistry. Well, if that's the case, you're wrong on both counts. Which you should know if you've read what I was actually saying and not what you wanted me to say. I've also praised him quite a bit elsewhere but you either happen not to have seen those posts or have a rather selective memory....

    I might entertain you regarding your specific question if I can find the time to watch and analyze but I'll answer in a PM - this is not the place. Please just note that I said "sometimes" - I never wrote that he deserved none of the high marks he got (but you'll probably choose to ignore that as it wouldn't fit with that "Plush-hater" corner you've been trying to paint me in )
    Oh I was happy too soon... But I'm not sad either. and you answer me if you want.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I think all the votes for Plushenko are crazy. Maybe he got some exagerrated scores at times but he NEVER won an event he didnt deserve to win. He hardly ever, if ever, got a placement at an event he didnt deserve to. IMO those things are mandatory for something who is historically overscored.
    its just hard to find anyone here who thinks he deserved silver in Vancouver or any medal or anything over a 5 in pcs under cop or like 5.5 in 6.0. I thought it was a possibility he'd be winning this poll!!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    its just hard to find anyone here who thinks he deserved silver in Vancouver or any medal or anything over a 5 in pcs under cop or like 5.5 in 6.0. I thought it was a possibility he'd be winning this poll!!
    I think he deserved at least the bronze in Vancouver. There are some good reasons Takahashi could have been placed ahead of him, but I don't think he should have been below Lambiel.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I think he deserved at least the bronze in Vancouver. There are some good reasons Takahashi could have been placed ahead of him, but I don't think he should have been below Lambiel.
    I thought he deserved the silver. Lysacek deserved 4th place (or worse). Glad to see Evan 2nd on this poll. 2nd place to Chan, just as it should be.

  11. #51
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    Patrick Chan. Amazed he has so few votes on this poll.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post

    Or this thread is about who is overrated? This is the FSU, so I'm not surprised, this is what I expected. Some vote for Plushy not too much, as opposed to thousands of fans who believe that he is the best skater ever.
    Then why are you so worried about a little poll on FSU when there are thousands of fans out there that believe he is the best ever?!?!

    What's tiring is your persistent use of things like number of 6.0s and other such Wikipedia facts to "prove" that he is indeed artistic, when those marks are exactly what many don't agree with based on watching what he has shown on the ice. You have proved nothing.

  13. #53
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    Plushenko might have deserved his wins and results just looking at the competitions now but one could also argue judges completely changed the nature of the competition with their outageous scores of him. For instance at the 2006 Olympics you just look at the event now and yeah he was the clear winner even had the marks been fair. He might have won by 12 points rather than 28 but he still would have won. However had the judges not given that ridiculous 90 for his short program and remember the scoring was way lower back then so that is like a 105 in 2010, the other guys might have been more motivated to try and catch him rather than getting the message they could only hope to fight for silver. That happened many other times too.

    I also remember one event like the 2001 Grand Prix final where he and Yagudin both skated perfectly with 2 quads and the same jumps and Plushenko won. He got almost all 5.9s on both sets before Yagudin even skated. That was not fair and not the right result I think either. So it wouldnt be true he has no questionable wins either. His Olympic silver in 2002 and World gold both over Tim Goebel who outjumped him both times was also iffy. Plushenko's jumps are often used as the basis for his wins despite his other weak parts, but when someone who is weak in artistry and spins does better in jumps they use the 2nd mark to justify him winning. It seems like a double standard to me.

    I still voted Chan but Plushenko would have been my other if I was allowed to vote two.

  14. #54

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    Plushenko's jumps are clearly the best. In 2003 some thought Timothy Goebel should have won. They were mostly Americans in the audience who overlooked Goebel's posture and weaker basic skating and footwork. Goebel was not as physically strong.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 06-03-2013 at 07:32 AM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Then why are you so worried about a little poll on FSU when there are thousands of fans out there that believe he is the best ever?!?!

    What's tiring is your persistent use of things like number of 6.0s and other such Wikipedia facts to "prove" that he is indeed artistic, when those marks are exactly what many don't agree with based on watching what he has shown on the ice. You have proved nothing.
    This is what I'm talking about. I am sure that you very rarely watch his programs, you do not know his all program, just some of them. Are you brave, and you say the Nijinsky, Tango and flamenco, Carmen etc. aren't artistic?
    If you watch his programs on YT, you can read : he is the best skater ever.
    I enjoy, when the North -americans wrote something like this: "I never knew Plushenko was this talented. I learned of him in 2002, but I was rooting for Yagudin. I still love Alexei, but omg this is heart-stopping. All the stuff I've missed...man, I wish I could go back and follow Evgeni's career from the start. Hope 2014 is all Plushy...and some for Takahashi...yeah."
    But as I said this is FSU. Many Plushy fans know there are many legendary Plushy haters, who are very jealous of his success, because for many years he was invincible, and perfect.

    And that is funny, don't you think you are wrong? The judges,who gave him very high marks from the beginning- his first senior competition ECH 1998, the judges gave him 5,8 5.9 for his presenation, those were higher than Yag's- his lots of fans, the crowd who went crazy for him when Plushy blew up the arena, they are wrong...OMG! This is FSU!
    Last edited by lala; 06-03-2013 at 08:44 AM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Patrick Chan. Amazed he has so few votes on this poll.
    What do you mean? He's in the gold medal position. But what else is new...
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Patrick Chan. Amazed he has so few votes on this poll.
    Agree ... for the first time ever he almost wuz robbed!
    Last edited by Zokko!; 06-03-2013 at 11:18 AM.

  18. #58
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    I voted Evan Lysacek by mistake, could you disregard my vote please? I don't know who's the most overscored, all skaters listed here received crazy scores at some point of their carer.

  19. #59
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    I voted for Elvis because I felt he was the most overscored of the ones listed, but my real choice is Phillipe Candeloro. I mean, please...

    OK, now reading the rest of the posts I realize I forgot Plushy at the end, particularly the second Gold Medal winning exercise. That may have been the single most overscored Mens program I have seen in 30 some years. By ANY standard. I hate CoP, but I don't blame it for that travesty.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I guess the OP knew this thread would turn into another "Chan is overscored, Chan is a robber, ..."
    Well, I'll say something in his behalf. I totally get why he is scored the way he is. Yes, he falls. But when he doesn't he is head and shoulders above everybody else out there when it comes to skating skills and presentation. Remember blade control? Unless you watch old Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano, Brian Orser and Kurt Browning videos you won't see much of it EXCEPT in Patrick Chan. Makes everything a skater does that much better.

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