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  1. #41
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    It is easier to guess which 6.0 skaters could have navigated IJS as successfully as they did 6.0 and which perhaps could not. Kwan would have suffered some under IJS because of her spins.


    It's harder to judge how skaters under IJS, like Kim Yu-Na and Mao, would perform under 6.0 criteria. You have to take the imaginative leap and consider how their style and performance would be different--and most likely improved. Under 6.0, Kostner would not be world champion-- not unless they brought back figures.

  2. #42

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    I think skaters who dominated under 6.0 can dominate under IJS simply and vice versa simply because to be the top few skaters will definitely require at least some talent. How they train and put out on ice will definitely depend on the judging system - what they reward and what they don't.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think it's important to note that some skaters under 6.0 were able to win even when they did not skate clean or even when someone else did harder jump content. Sometimes it was because the quality of the jumps they did complete was superior. But usually, they (also?) had superior skating skills and/or superior technical content and choreography between the jumps.

    Kurt Browning, 1991-94, comes to mind as a good example.

    So I think at least some judges were always rewarding some of the things that were invisible to casual observers, because they weren't explicit in the rules and commentators rarely mentioned them nearly as often as they talked about the jumps. Which led to occasional wuzrobbing when the skater who won the jump contest didn't win the event.

    Now these qualities are explicitly written into the rules, which I think is great for the sport. There just needs to be continual improvement on the balance of what skills should be rewarded most highly and how good a job the judges are doing at rewarding them appropriately.
    This is why I think that Chan would have won under both IJS and 6.0
    Yes he would have started the quads earlier or reached the top later.
    Yes he would have had less difficult transitions so he would have fallen less.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlscouse62 View Post
    I would like to suggest Virtue and Moir did really well with their CD's. In their early years in Seniors they certainly got better marks than a lot of more seasoned skaters who had skated under 6.0
    There is no question in my mind that amongst the icedancers V&M would be at the top in both IJS and in 6.0
    I dont think that D&W would have been equally gifted under 6.0

  5. #45
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    The top 5 skaters per discipline most able to dominate under both in order IMO:

    Pairs: 1. Gordeeva & Grinkov, 2. Totmianina & Marinin (I know many hate them but they were well suited to both systems), 3. Shen & Zhao (well suited to both systems in their prime too), 4. Valova & Vasiliev, 5. not sure, since I love them I will say Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze although I have some reservations of them under COP too

    I adore Miskutienok & Dmitriev but her solo jumps which were sometimes inconsistent and weak, and their simpler lifts would have hurt them alot in COP. They may have made up the points in other areas though. I didnt pick Savchenko & Szolkowy and Voloszhar & Trankov as both make too many mistakes for 6.0. Granted if they were competing against a field like today which is so weak they would probably be on top in either, but against strong competition they would need COP to be competitive with their consistency issues. Sale & Pelletier skated programs that were far too simple both technically and choreographically typically to do well under COP, regardless of various opinions of the quality of their overall skating. Shishkova & Naumov are a team who would have done well under both and maybe even better under COP IMO. Petrova & Tikhonov may have had a better career had COP been in place when they were younger, yet they still won a World title under 6.0 so they are worth noting. Bechke & Petrov might have been the best suited to COP of the early 90s top teams (apart from B&E) except for her consistency problems and nerves.


    Men: 1. Plushenko, 2. Yagudin, 3. Browning, 4. Boitano, 5. Orser. We have already seen Plushenkos ability to dominate under both so there is nothing to speculate on. Yagudin just as much, I only put him 2nd since we didnt actually see him compete under COP but 99% sure he would have been a huge World beater under it too. Browning, Boitano, Orser had all the tools to do great under both as well.


    Dance: 1. Klimova & Ponomarenko, 2. Virtue & Moir, 3. Gritschuk & Platov, 4. Torvill & Dean, 5. Denkova & Stayviski or Navka & Kostomarov. K&P and V&P are easily the two most suited to dominate under both. When I thought about it more I could see a few problems G&P and T&D even in their peak years might have run into with the very strict COP guidelines, but I am sure they could have adapted (which in T&D imparticular would have been a shame as it would have restricted some of the sheer brilliance of their work) and would have still done very well. I dont see Davis & White actually doing as well under 6.0. Their programs dont have any of the European drama or steam that the judges backed then liked to see, and they arent a very elegant team which was also more important back then. They are an amazing team of course but definitely a COP team.


    Ladies: 1. Kim, 2. Ito, 3.Slutskaya, 4. Yamaguchi, 5. Asada. This was a pretty straightforward top 5 and didnt even require much thought to come up with.



    Meanwhile the skaters who would struggle most to come close to their COP or 6.0 success under the other system they happened to luck into skating in per discipline IMO would be:

    Pairs: 1. Sale & Pelletier, 2. Savchenko & Szolkowy, 3. Woetzel & Steuer, 4. Meno & Sand, 5. Zhang & Zhang

    Men: 1. Chan, 2. Chan (he is so dominant here he deserves to take the first 2 places atleast), 3. Goebel, 4. Stojko, 5. Urmanov

    Dance: 1. Fusar Poli, 2. Duchensays, 3. Anissina & Peizerat (love them but I see them really struggling under COP for some reason, although considering the teams of their era it might not have hurt them and even helped them when they actually competed per say), 4. Bestiamanova & Bukin, 5. Lobacheva & Averbuhk

    Ladies: 1. Hughes. 2. Hughes (again so dominant deserves first 2 places), 3. Witt, 4. Bonaly, 5. Ando or Kwan
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 06-01-2013 at 02:08 AM.

  6. #46
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    I dont agree with all the people saying Gordeeva & Grinkov would be a dominant COP skater or Shen & Zhao a dominant 6.0 skater. Shen & Zhao skated under 6.0 for many years and never won a major title. They started winning when it went to COP. Gordeeva & Grinkov are the best pair ever but without side by side triples, overly complicated lifts, and a throw double axel, that wouldnt work for them under COP despite their massive quality.

  7. #47

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    Yagudin and his toe stomping footwork would likely not have dominated COP. Neither would have Plushenko if he hadn't already built up an unshakable reputation from the 6.0 years.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Yagudin and his toe stomping footwork would likely not have dominated COP. Neither would have Plushenko if he hadn't already built up an unshakable reputation from the 6.0 years.
    Plushenko did dominate COP in 2005 and 2006. Winning events by 30 or 40 points. So he did dominated COP and nobody can question that. Yagudin is a better skater than Plushenko so would have been even more dominant, especialy in COP which would have rewarded his more complete skating compared to Plushenko even more.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post
    Shen & Zhao skated under 6.0 for many years and never won a major title. They started winning when it went to COP.
    S&Z won both the 2002 and 2003 Worlds under the 6.0 system!

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy
    Meanwhile the skaters who would struggle most to come close to their COP or 6.0 success under the other system they happened to luck into skating in per discipline
    LUCK? We need luck to win? Well then, 99.9% of the sports competitors are just damn UNLUCKY!
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Yagudin and his toe stomping footwork would likely not have dominated COP. Neither would have Plushenko if he hadn't already built up an unshakable reputation from the 6.0 years.
    Yagudin only tried his toe pick footwork at his last competitive season. That doesn't mean he could only do toe-pick footwork. During his earlier years, even in his short programs, often loaded with lots of serpentine footwork, not many skaters did that, that means he had to do more turns and hence made his footwork more difficult than the others. Most importantly, whatever he did, he did it super easily, and he never spent 35 seconds on his footwork like all skaters are doing today. Today's skater may be doing footwork with more turns, but they also spend more time on their footwork, and most of them, also do LOOK difficult (painfully).

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Yagudin only tried his toe pick footwork at his last competitive season. That doesn't mean he could only do toe-pick footwork. During his earlier years, even in his short programs, often loaded with lots of serpentine footwork, not many skaters did that, that means he had to do more turns and hence made his footwork more difficult than the others. Most importantly, whatever he did, he did it super easily, and he never spent 35 seconds on his footwork like all skaters are doing today. Today's skater may be doing footwork with more turns, but they also spend more time on their footwork, and most of them, also do LOOK difficult (painfully).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og59QN4L_ko
    Great program, but still lots of toe steps, running steps, very little use of turns especially upper level turns, little use of edges... I really enjoyed the steps for their musicality but he did it super easily because it really wasn't that hard.

    I also don't agree with whoever that said Yagudin was a better skater than Plushenko. I believe they were pretty much equal in the judgess eyes (I even felt Plushenko would always come out on top if they had an equally clean competition). In terms of ability, Plushenko was actually the more naturally gifted skater (both had a ton of two-foot skating but Plush had neater jumps, quicker feet and better posture) but Yagudin had more coherent and memorable/emotional programs.
    Last edited by shine; 06-01-2013 at 07:01 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post
    I dont agree with all the people saying Gordeeva & Grinkov would be a dominant COP skater or Shen & Zhao a dominant 6.0 skater. Shen & Zhao skated under 6.0 for many years and never won a major title. They started winning when it went to COP. Gordeeva & Grinkov are the best pair ever but without side by side triples, overly complicated lifts, and a throw double axel, that wouldnt work for them under COP despite their massive quality.
    They didn't start winning until 2002 Worlds and later because they had to "wait" for the retirements of S&P and B&S, not because the system was 6.0.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og59QN4L_ko
    Great program, but still lots of toe steps, running steps, very little use of turns especially upper level turns, little use of edges... I really enjoyed the steps for their musicality but he did it super easily because it really wasn't that hard.

    I also don't agree with whoever that said Yagudin was a better skater than Plushenko. I believe they were pretty much equal in the judgess eyes (I even felt Plushenko would always come out on top if they had an equally clean competition). In terms of ability, Plushenko was actually the more naturally gifted skater (both had a ton of two-foot skating but Plush had neater jumps, quicker feet and better posture) but Yagudin had more coherent and memorable/emotional programs.
    I am sorry, but actually Yagudin won when they skated equally clean, such as 2000 sp, and he even won over Plushenko with more mistakes such as 2002 gpf (2nd lp). And Yagudin Zayaked in his first lp, Plushenko skated much cleaner, but still he only lost one judge's vote. That's not how you think they would rank in the judges' eyes, it's already a fact. Yagudin obviously had better edge quality than Plushenko and his footwork was more rhythmic and musical, his body movement was more fluid while Plushenko barely used his upper body when he's moving, that's a sign of superior technique. Yagudin's a more naturally talented skater, and he's talented at everything. Plushenko got lots of reward for his focus on jumps, when Yagudin started working more on jumps after 2001 worlds too, Plushenko's advantage just lost. Yagudin's 4-3-2, the rhythm of the three jumps, the height, the position in the air, the flow out of the last jump. The quality was better than any of Plushenko's 4-3-2, and his coach was Tarasova, not Mishin by the time, and you talk about natural gift. Plushenko is just an extremely ambitious and hard working skater, when Morosov and Tarasova had a chance to see him training, they were all impressed by his discipline. And his maniac like energy is his asset.
    Last edited by unicorn; 06-01-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    I am sorry, but actually Yagudin won when they skated equally clean, such as 2000 sp, and he even won over Plushenko with more mistakes such as 2002 gpf (2nd lp). And Yagudin Zayaked in his first lp, Plushenko skated much cleaner, but still he only lost one judge's vote. That's not how you think they would rank in the judges' eyes, it's already a fact. Yagudin obviously had better edge quality than Plushenko and his footwork was more rhythmic and musical, his body movement was more fluid while Plushenko barely used his upper body when he's moving, that's a sign of superior technique. Yagudin's a more naturally talented skater, and he's talented at everything. Plushenko got lots of reward for his focus on jumps, when Yagudin started working more on jumps after 2001 worlds too, Plushenko's advantage just lost. Yagudin's 4-3-2, the rhythm of the three jumps, the height, the position in the air, the flow out of the last jump. The quality was better than any of Plushenko's 4-3-2, and his coach was Tarasova, not Mishin by the time, and you talk about natural gift. Plushenko is just an extremely ambitious and hard working skater, when Morosov and Tarasova had a chance to see him training, they were all impressed by his discipline. And his maniac like energy is his asset.
    Have you met Alexei in person? Oh, I understand.. But I disagree with you, Plusheko was more naturally and talented skater. You check it in their very early programs. And his jumps were better, faster, and he had more beautiful air position.

    at 13-JWH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRZoZWEzCYQ
    at 15-ECH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv4VzP2wDvI silver medal
    at 16- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1vHflKsyU0 crazy bird..do you think, that can be taught????? never...

    I recommend you rewatch Plushy's all programs without prejudice and bias, as I did with Alexei's programs. Yagudin has never beat the clean Plushenko.

    2000 was a bad WCH for Plu, but Plu clearly beat Alexei at ECH 2000. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc hm....interesting rection
    Last edited by lala; 06-01-2013 at 01:00 PM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post
    Plushenko did dominate COP in 2005 and 2006. Winning events by 30 or 40 points. So he did dominated COP and nobody can question that. Yagudin is a better skater than Plushenko so would have been even more dominant, especialy in COP which would have rewarded his more complete skating compared to Plushenko even more.
    Yagudin could't dominante over Plush at that time, when it was his peak time.
    Last edited by lala; 06-01-2013 at 08:25 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Yagudin and his toe stomping footwork would likely not have dominated COP. Neither would have Plushenko if he hadn't already built up an unshakable reputation from the 6.0 years.
    But if Yagudin competed under CoP, he would have changed his footwork anyway.

    This is the factor we need to consider. If skaters shift systems, they will shift their elements, upgrading their spins, spirals, and footwork. Unless skaters have been in the old system way too long and don't have the robustness to shift anymore, they generally will be competitive under both systems. We can say this about skaters like Kwan, Butyrskaya, or Yagudin. Many skaters have improved their elements or upgraded them under CoP. Joubert, for example, improved the quality of his spins significantly.

    Skaters like Goebel and Honda did worse under CoP because they were past their prime and had trouble with their jumps. If they skated in Torino like they did in SLC with upgraded elements, they would easily have taken at least silver and bronze. They probably would have taken 2nd and 3rd i the short too.

    The glaring exception, IMO, are skaters with major jump technique issues (Hughes, Asada, Nagasu, Zhang, for example) who would suffer a lot under CoP. If Asada was skating under 6.0, she would probably be getting marks much closer to Kim's. The other exception are skaters such as Chan and Kostner.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Absolutely. Kulik too. Maybe not the spins so much, but his programs were always amazingly complex and he moved around so very well.
    Agree. Kulik‘s skating was a quality skating. And he skated big. Would gain great GOEs & good PCS.
    Last edited by t.mann; 06-02-2013 at 04:03 PM.

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    Kulik would not be a strong COP skater. Not only were his spin weak but his footwork was nothing to write home about, and his choreography consistested of alot of posing and rest periods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Kulik would not be a strong COP skater. Not only were his spin weak but his footwork was nothing to write home about, and his choreography consistested of alot of posing and rest periods.
    Plushenko's spins were weak. His footwork was nothing to write home about (technically), and his choreography consisted of much more posing and rest periods. Didn't stop him from winning Olympic gold and silver.

    Plus Kulik's footwork skill was actually superb because he did have very strong basics. He was always smooth and knew exactly where his feet were. He would ace COP footwork in both difficulty and quality. Plus you need to revisit Kulik's 1996 and 1997 programs if you felt his choreographies were simplistic. Even in 1998 when his programs were more avant garde, they were still very choreographically demanding because you need a LOT of flow to pull off Gershwin (thus explaning Kulik's, Lysacek's and Kim's success with this music).

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