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  1. #1
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    Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

    Are there skaters who do you think can dominate in both of systems?
    That skaters have to have all of these - consistency, high quality jumps, high-difficulty jumps, strong mentality, artistry etc etc.

    Here are another topics.
    Who do you think are most friendly skater with IJS, and most weak or having the disadvantage under 6.0 ? Or who do you think are most friendly skater with 6.0 system, and most weak or having the disadvantage under IJS?
    Last edited by torren; 05-30-2013 at 02:04 AM.

  2. #2

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    Midori Ito
    Yu Na Kim
    Rodnina
    G/G
    David Jenkins
    Slutskaya
    Young Kwan
    Biellman
    Fratianne
    Young Chen Lu
    Boitano
    Orser
    Plushenko
    Goebel
    Yagudin
    Kulik
    Demetriev
    Last edited by bardtoob; 05-30-2013 at 01:56 AM.

  3. #3
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    I think Yagudin and Plushenko for sure fit the bill. I think Gordeeva & Grinkov, prime Shen & Zhao, prime Totmianina & Marininm and Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze would all fit the bill. I think Klimova & Ponomarenko, Torvill & Dean, and Gritschuk & Platov would have been super strong and even harder to beat under COP. Slutskaya although she probably has more potential dominance under COP than she did under 6.0, especialy as her errors she inherently made were not as costly under COP as 6.0 as the 2005 Worlds proved. I think Ito would have been very strong under COP as well, just as she was under 6.0. I think Yamaguchi would have been very formidable under COP, not huge GOE on the jumps but would have collected enough points in many other ways to compensate. I think Kwan up until 2001 would have been very competitive under COP, but after 2001 much less so and thankful to be under 6.0 at that point.

    Boitano and Orser would have been great under COP too. Asada would have been even more formidable IMO under 6.0, although she has won 2 World titles and been fairly dominant under COP. Cohen is quite strong on both, especialy the 2004-2006 version of Cohen. Biellmann would have been devastatingly strong in her prime under COP I think, and of course was dominant in free skating even under 6.0. Lastly I think Debi Thomas would have been super strong under COP, especialy a COP that included figures too, but even without would have been. She really had all the attributes needed, quality elements in all respects, great combinations,, strong basics, strong programs with transitions, moves in field and difficult entries into jumps.


    Some skaters who are much more dominant under COP or would have been under COP than 6.0 would be Arakawa (although she won a World title under both),
    Ando, Lysacek, Flatt, Savchenko & Szolkowy, Duhamel & Radford, Chan, Davis & White, Buttle, Sato, and Eldredge. Chan, Lysacek, and Ando especialy I dont see being much of a factor at all under COP. Chan on a good day might be, but how often does he have those. Eldredge would have had a better career under COP probably, and I think Yuka Sato would have as well. Meanwhile some 6.0 skaters who COP would have been a nightmare for would be Stojko, Urmanov, Sale & Pelletier, Duchensays, Usova & Zhulin, maybe Anissina & Peizerat, for sure Fusar Poli, Lobacheva & Averbuhk, Hughes (her career highlight would probably be 7th at Nationals or something under COP), Baiul, Chen, Sumners, Witt, Scott Hamilton perhaps, Woetzel & Steuer.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Goebel
    Did I read that right.

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    Of course, we'll never know for sure, but I believe that today's top skaters would do great under 6.0 (and probably produce some memorable programs, without the 35-second step sequences, never-ending spin combos and all the other restrictions).
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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    Kristi yamaguchi's Samson and Delilah and maleguena programs is slightly tweaked could win medals today 21 years later. outside camel spin, flying sit spin, catch layback... just needs the rotation count for higher level. now that the spiral step isn't as valued and like yu na kim has the triple lutz triple toe combo and struggles with the edge jumps. Kristi however benefits over kim cause she struggles with the salchow lesser value than the loop that kim seems to omit from her programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Did I read that right.
    He was dominant in that he was on the podium at everything level of competition for years on end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    He was dominant in that he was on the podium at everything level of competition for years on end.
    Yes but all under 6.0. Once COP came into play he was finished.

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    I have no doubt that, had some version of the IJS been introduced 10 or 15 years earlier, Michelle Kwan and Kurt Browning would have won at least as often as they did under 6.0.

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    I don't know if pairs count, but Shen and Zhao.

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    I think Ando would have been more competitive under 6.0 than CoP. She reasonably consistently lands her 3lutz-3loop and was penalized many times for URs on this combination. At her peak, she is definitely competitive under 6.0 because she can land the most difficult jump content and has ok artistry. While her artistry isn't that great, it isn't bad enough to keep her out of the running. Flatt as well, she was remarkably consistent with sound technique, and also consistently landed 3-3s in her prime. She would definitely have been medal material under the late 6.0 years if she skates consistently.

    Other skaters who would do better under 6.0 are Nagasu, Zhang, Nakano, and Joubert. Skaters who would do worse would also include Lepisto (lack of harder triple jumps).

    Despite the fact that Matt Savoie is reputed to have "CoP programs" before CoP existed, he really didn't do better under CoP (but was undermarked under both systems, anyway).

    I'm under the thinking that if most skaters under 6.0 were forced to do CoP or vice versa, they will generally be able to adjust accordingly. Of course, it would be hard for a skater like Butyrskaya to switch over in her prime when she is in her late 20s, but she could definitely have done it if introduced at an earlier time. For other skaters, like Bonaly, the technique might be too difficult to reverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I have no doubt that, had some version of the IJS been introduced 10 or 15 years earlier, Michelle Kwan and Kurt Browning would have won at least as often as they did under 6.0.
    Absolutely. Kulik too. Maybe not the spins so much, but his programs were always amazingly complex and he moved around so very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Other skaters who would do better under 6.0 are Nagasu, Zhang, Nakano, and Joubert.
    I think Zhang's jumping issues and some of Nagasu's and Nakano's URs are so obvious that they can't even disregard under 6.0. Don't forget though that spins and spirals are worth much less under 6.0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I have no doubt that, had some version of the IJS been introduced 10 or 15 years earlier, Michelle Kwan and Kurt Browning would have won at least as often as they did under 6.0.
    I'm not sure about Michelle because when IJS was instituted she fell in the standings. I think Kurt actually might have done BETTER under IJS, although maybe the same.

    Anyway, as for other men I think Patrick Chan would definitely not be doing as well under 6.0. Jump kings like VDP, Joubert, Fernandez and Reynolds would be doing better (heck, VDP and Joubert did have more success under 6.0). Shawn Sawyer would not have done as well under 6.0. Viktor Petrenko would have done even better under IJS. Elvis Stojko and Philippe Candeloro would not have done as well under IJS.

    There aren't any past women who clearly jump out at me as ones who would have done better under IJS.. maybe Josee Chouinard. Miki Ando probably would have done better under 6.0, maybe Kanako Murakami too since she gets dinged for underrotations a lot.. also Caroline Zhang although I don't think she would have been a top contender under 6.0 either.

    Denney/Coughlin might do better under 6.0 because they're very consistent and clean, which 6.0 often rewarded.

    I'm too tired to think about the dancers right now..

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Anyway, as for other men I think Patrick Chan would definitely not be doing as well under 6.0. Jump kings like VDP, Joubert, Fernandez and Reynolds would be doing better (heck, VDP and Joubert did have more success under 6.0). Shawn Sawyer would not have done as well under 6.0. Viktor Petrenko would have done even better under IJS. Elvis Stojko and Philippe Candeloro would not have done as well under IJS.
    Actually, Joubert and van Der Perren enjoyed some early success under 6.0, but their best years and results were after the IJS came in (although both did better under the earlier version of the system than the current one). I do think they'd have both done better if 6.0 had continued. Johnny Weir, too.

    Shen and Zhao and Plushenko succeeded under both systems, though Plushenko is really more of a 6.0 skater. Carolina Kostner had some early success under 6.0 before the change over to the current system. I think Takahashi would have been fine (indeed, he was fine in winning 2002 JW); his frequent UR problems with quads wouldn't have hurt too much, and he's got great content and showmanship.

    Patrick Chan would have done far worse under 6.0, as skating skills were not as valued and clean performances were; also, he had no quad in his earlier years, which would have put him at a disadvantage. He wouldn't have been competitive until he had one, which would have meant more time before he got the sort of reputation he had even early in his career. Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze would have done better under the IJS, which plays to their strengths and would have allowed them to get away with some mistakes. It would have been like S/S with more polish and somewhat less difficult elements, I think. By the same measure, S/S probably wouldn't have succeeded to the extent that they did if they had to skate under 6.0 (though Aliona did win JW with Morozov back in the day).

    It's really hard to evaluate dance teams, because that's probably the discipline that has changed the most, and I'm not sure how well current competitors would have done with two CDs or how past ice dancers would have adjusted to the demands of the current system.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    I think Ando would have been more competitive under 6.0 than CoP.
    Ando is a 2 time World Champion already. Already a massive stretch for a skater of her caliber to begin with, and I certainly cant fathom her bettering that under any scoring system. IMO she wouldnt do as well under 6.0 since her artistic marks would be very low compared to the others at the top, and the 2nd mark was always the tiebreaker under 6.0 (well in the time she presumably would have been skating anyway), and many of her high TES come more from clever jump layout and COP whoreing than any form of vastly superior technical skating. The only year she truly displayed technical superior jumping to others with competent artistry was in 2007, and even that year she was no match for Kim or Asada when in form. After 2007 she never put on any kind of stellar jumping display that would take her to a big title under 6.0, including and especialy her 2011 Worlds victory with only 5 triples, no impressive combinations, and not even a triple flip attempt. Before 2007 she was a 5.4 or 5.5 presentation skater, as the judges scores at the 2004 Worlds and some of the cheesefests that still used 6.0 indicated. Furthermore when one breaks it down in detail it is pretty obvious she would not have won either of her World titles under 6.0 (and of course no others was she even close to winning so no point even considering another World event besides those two).

    2011 Worlds for instance, if that was under 6.0 no way she wins. She and Kim both landed 5 triples, both had mistakes but neither fell, Kim had a triple-triple and Ando didnt even attempt one, and the judges consider Kims jumps as good or better as the GOE proves, and Kim is clearly considered the more artistic and all around skater. So under 6.0 it would be a blowout win for Kim, but under COP Ando won. Under 6.0 Kims short program miscue meanwhile would have probably meant her being 2nd in the short to Ando, as opposed to still 1st as she was under COP, but wouldnt have mattered in the end.

    2007 Worlds Ando won despite winning neither program. Under 6.0 it is highly unlikely she would have won this way. The same programs skated under COP Ando would have been placed 3rd in the short behind Kim and Kostner at best. Asada with singling the second jump of her combo, which actually wasnt as grave a mistake in the SP by the 95-2004 period of 6.0 would have been held up to 4th over Meissner I expect (especialy as Meissner wouldnt have won the 06 Worlds under 6.0), and maybe even been placed 3rd over Ando. Asada easily beat Ando in the LP and would have under 6.0 too, while Kim would have been 3rd at best in the long with her skate under either 6.0 or COP. So Asada wins.

    Lastly name a single competition Ando would have likely placed higher under 6.0 than she did under COP, or won under 6.0 that she didnt win under COP.



    As for Flatt the only times she was landing triple-triples and eligible for Senior Worlds in 09-2010 was when many women who were better than her were also doing them, and most of them more consistently and better ones ones than her- Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette (well 3-3 sequences, but close enough comparing the quality of their skating). 5th placeish was always about the best she was ever going to get under either system. Frankly I doubt she would have even got that high since boring skating that does not excite or move people in anyway was far less rewarded under 6.0, and a couple years of her doing triple-triples would not have cemented her as some fab technical skater in the judges eyes, when many women were doing 3-3s by then. Anyway her only cleanish skate ever in a big event was the 2010 Olympics, and the level of skating at that event she wouldnt have been close to a medal period under any system.

    More likely Flatt would have lost to Wagner and Zhang under COP at both the 2008 and 2009 Nationals, lost to Nagasu (and maybe even Wagner too) at the 2010 Nationals, never won Nationals, and made less trips to Worlds than she did.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 05-30-2013 at 09:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I'm not sure about Michelle because when IJS was instituted she fell in the standings.
    Which is why gkelly said if the system was introduced 10 to 15 years earlier - i.e. in the early to mid 90s. Kwan was fresh as grass then.

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    I think that the skaters of today would have been great in 6.0, but the former skaters would not have been that great in CoP. Plushenko and Joubert are good examples of 6.0 skaters who apparently are not able to have transitions before their jumps (at least they are not havingt hem.....).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    I think that the skaters of today would have been great in 6.0, but the former skaters would not have been that great in CoP. Plushenko and Joubert are good examples of 6.0 skaters who apparently are not able to have transitions before their jumps (at least they are not havingt hem.....).
    You are aware, of course, that there is more to the IJS than transitions? Because sometimes I think people forget that it's one component out of five, not the most important thing in skating.

    Plushenko's record under the IJS includes an OGM, an Olympic silver, and three Euros titles; he had to WD with injury from his only Worlds under the current system. Joubert's IJS record includes a World title, four other medals, seven of his ten Euro medals and a GPF title. This compares favorably, I'd say, to most of the guys considered IJS-friendly skaters. As I noted, it's not just about having the most transitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    You are aware, of course, that there is more to the IJS than transitions? Because sometimes I think people forget that it's one component out of five, not the most important thing in skating.

    As I noted, it's not just about having the most transitions.
    I especially mentioned transitions as the lack of them is most obvious in the skating of Plushenko and Joubert. Plushenko´s choreograhy has been very lacking, too. But because of their reputation both Joubert and Plushenko are getting high PCS scores anyway... Of course some of them they deserve, but not all, in my opinion.

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