View Poll Results: Maria deserved these medals/wins in her career and was robbed of

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  • 1996 Worlds bronze

    24 61.54%
  • 1997 Grand Prix final gold (or silver)

    15 38.46%
  • 1997 Worlds bronze

    16 41.03%
  • 1998 Olympics bronze

    22 56.41%
  • 1998 Worlds silver

    16 41.03%
  • 2000 Worlds gold

    16 41.03%
  • 2000 NHK gold

    30 76.92%
  • 2001 Grand Prix final gold (based on how she skates winning NHK)

    6 15.38%
  • 2001 Worlds gold

    10 25.64%
  • 2002 Olympic gold (based on how she skates if she didnt quit after robbed in short)

    3 7.69%
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Nobody cared about her lutz in any prior era. There would have been more attention paid to the awkward landing in Seventeen Moments of Spring than the BOE takeoff.

    I appreciate your defending her, though, because that 2001 Seventeen Moments of Spring Worlds performance was much better than Slutskaya's Don Quixote. It was in fact a masterpiece artistically speaking.
    Well, I think they would have cared that she landed a triple Lutz. Now that was rare. Although she probably wouldn't have won with one performance like that with the way Ito still lost to Witt and Manley in the LP in Calgary, continued performances like that would have built up her reputation with the judges.

  2. #42

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    I am sure you are right that it would have helped her move up in the early and mid-90s. I can really see your point. If she gave a few performances similar to that in 1990-1994, history could have been different for the whole ladies event. Her reputation might have been very strong by 1995.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Maria Butyrskaya is one of the most underrated and undermarked skaters ever. These are the results I think she deserved and did not get in her career. Which of these do you think she should have gotten but judges deprived her:

    1995 Nations Cup- deserved gold over Kwan. She skated cleanly with 6 triples and Kwan stepped out of a jump and doubled another and only did 5. Yet Kwan was given even higher technical marks.
    .
    I had forgotten how great Bute skated at this event, it was the best she skated all season actually landed all her jumps. I would have given it to her over Kwan. Its too bad she didn't skate like that at worlds (that hand down on her second loop hurt her because she didn't have the difficulty of Slutskaya).

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I don't know, Maria Butyrskaya's Otonal and 17 Moments in Spring performances at 1999 and 2001 Worlds would have been hard to beat in any previous era. Not unbeatable, of course, but seven triples with a 3/3 sequence and engaging choreography (not to mention a true Lutz, a great camel spin, a classic sit spin, nice variety in the combination spin) was pretty rare prior to the mid-1990s.
    Maria's 1999 World title performance maybe, but her 2001 World performance wasnt so great. She did not do 7 triples, she doubled her 2nd triple lutz, and she did not have a true triple-triple combination of any sort. She also landed pitched forward and barely held onto atleast 3 landings. Her artistic marks were high, the only ones close to Kwan's, but her technical marks were low, and well behind Slutskaya, Kwan, and even Hughes and Voltchkova in the long program showing the judges were not pleased with the technique of the program. Remember her 2001 Worlds performance was deemed not even worthy of beating Sarah Hughes for a medal. A performance that cant beat Hughes wont be winning many major titles, that is for sure.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Well, I think they would have cared that she landed a triple Lutz. Now that was rare. Although she probably wouldn't have won with one performance like that with the way Ito still lost to Witt and Manley in the LP in Calgary, continued performances like that would have built up her reputation with the judges.
    Well that hypothetical of continuing to do strong performances and build reputation up via that is already unrealistic for Maria. Her career is one great performance, one so so, one dissapointing, one so so, one dissapointing, one very good, one dissapointing, one great, one dissapointing, one dissapointing, one so so, one very good, and so on. She is pretty consistent in the short sort of, I think she finished above Michelle Kwan about 8 times in the short program which is impressive, but in the long she is nowhere near as constant, and her really good performances of the level of even the 2001 Worlds or above are few and far between. So no chance of her doing that string of performances to build up that reputation and respect you refer to.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    Maria's 1999 World title performance maybe, but her 2001 World performance wasnt so great. She did not do 7 triples, she doubled her 2nd triple lutz, and she did not have a true triple-triple combination of any sort. She also landed pitched forward and barely held onto atleast 3 landings. Her artistic marks were high, the only ones close to Kwan's, but her technical marks were low, and well behind Slutskaya, Kwan, and even Hughes and Voltchkova in the long program showing the judges were not pleased with the technique of the program. Remember her 2001 Worlds performance was deemed not even worthy of beating Sarah Hughes for a medal. A performance that cant beat Hughes wont be winning many major titles, that is for sure.
    Maria did six triples, but she certainly had a 3/3 sequence (Triple Toe-half loop-Triple Salchow). In discussing previous eras, how many skaters were doing six triples with a 3/3 sequence in the early 1990s? 1980s? 1970s? 1960s? Etc. I'm not saying Maria had the best technique or anything, but let's not pretend the judges wouldn't have counted as clean like they had in those past eras with skaters who had less than ideal technique (Lurtz, Ivanova, among others). My argument was only based on someone else saying Maria skated in a "weak era" which is what I had a problem with.

    You forget that Sarah Hughes is an Olympic Gold medalist. Nevertheless, technically, Maria's 2001 Worlds LP did beat Sarah Hughes in the LP. She was just too far behind in the qualifying round to have won the medal outright.

    Regarding my hypothetical, I was only saying that her 2001 Worlds performance was good enough to be in contention in past eras, if not win like Midori Ito did not win the LP in Calgary because she lacked the reputation.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maria did six triples, but she certainly had a 3/3 sequence (Triple Toe-half loop-Triple Salchow). In discussing previous eras, how many skaters were doing six triples with a 3/3 sequence in the early 1990s? 1980s? 1970s? 1960s? Etc. I'm not saying Maria had the best technique or anything, but let's not pretend the judges wouldn't have counted as clean. My argument was only based on someone else saying Maria skated in a "weak era" which is what I had a problem with.

    You forget that Sarah Hughes is an Olympic Gold medalist. Nevertheless, technically, Maria's 2001 Worlds LP did beat Sarah Hughes in the LP. She was just too far behind in the qualifying round to have won the medal outright.

    Regarding my hypothetical, I was only saying that her 2001 Worlds performance was good enough to be in contention in past eras, if not win like Midori Ito did not win the LP in Calgary because she lacked the reputation.
    Maria was over the hill a little in 2001 so we should be kind to her. I don't know what her mysterious abdominal surgery was in late 2001 but whatever it was it couldn't have helped. She was better from 1998-2000 on the landings.

  8. #48
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    I think 2 things threw her off:

    1. having to switch from the loop to the flip in the short program

    2. losing to Slutskaya at NHK

    Just my opinion anyway, she was a much better skater than Slutskaya overall, just not on individual elements.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Well, I think they would have cared that she landed a triple Lutz. Now that was rare. Although she probably wouldn't have won with one performance like that with the way Ito still lost to Witt and Manley in the LP in Calgary, continued performances like that would have built up her reputation with the judges.
    Had Maria started skating the way she did in 1996 in 1992 instead and built from there like she did from 1996 she would have had a much different career. Even her 1998 level would have been good enough to contend for the gold at the 94 Olympics, although she probably wouldnt have won with her nervous performance from the 98 Olympics, but I think the pressure of the strong field having skated well before her caused her nervous free skate there.

  10. #50
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    I would have scored long program at 2000 Worlds as Kwan 5.8 technical, 5.8 presentation, Butyrskaya 5.6 technical, 5.9 presentation, and Slutskaya 5.8 technical, 5.7 presentation, so Butyrskaya would be 2nd and win overall I guess. Although I dont see qualifying round and not sure if results and placements were fair there or not.

    Short program I had Kwan 4th behind Hughes too since she missed the triple flip.

  11. #51

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    I love this interview with Maria:

    Masha: It's a little painful for me to remember the Salt Lake City. Not everything
    depends on the athlete. There are many factors that influence the results. I
    realized very well that ladies event is probably the only event where Americans
    can take gold. It wouldn't be hard to guess that judges will protect the
    hosts in any case. I could only get a medal if Irina Slutskaya skated short
    program badly. By the way, that happened during the Olympic season more than
    once. If Slutskaya would fail, they would pay attention to another Russian.
    Russia could not be left without ladies' medal. I was just a backup.
    Slutskaya skated short program well. She should not have stopped later. She
    didn't even try triple/triple combination. American girl, Sarah Hughes, risked
    and she made it! Under-rotated jumps? So what! Those who were not happy with
    competition results had to find something to pick on Sarah. They pointed that
    she wasn't artistic. I think Hughes looked brighter than Slutskaya. She was more
    professional. Slutskaya behaved like a whiner. Why did she had to cry and yell
    everywhere that 5.6 for presentation is a never before seen mix-up and
    make a galactic tragedy out of it?

    Interviewer: Did you say it to Irina's face?

    Masha: We don't talk to each other.

    Irina: So, you think Hughes deserved to be an Olympic champion?

    Masha: It would've been fair if Michelle Kwan won in Salt Lake City...

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    I would have scored long program at 2000 Worlds as Kwan 5.8 technical, 5.8 presentation, Butyrskaya 5.6 technical, 5.9 presentation, and Slutskaya 5.8 technical, 5.7 presentation, so Butyrskaya would be 2nd and win overall I guess. Although I dont see qualifying round and not sure if results and placements were fair there or not.

    Short program I had Kwan 4th behind Hughes too since she missed the triple flip.
    Who missed the 3Flip in the SP ?

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Who missed the 3Flip in the SP ?
    I think chanunderrated is referring to Kwan's underrotation of the 3F.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I love this interview with Maria:

    Masha: It's a little painful for me to remember the Salt Lake City. Not everything
    depends on the athlete. There are many factors that influence the results. I
    realized very well that ladies event is probably the only event where Americans
    can take gold. It wouldn't be hard to guess that judges will protect the
    hosts in any case. I could only get a medal if Irina Slutskaya skated short
    program badly. By the way, that happened during the Olympic season more than
    once. If Slutskaya would fail, they would pay attention to another Russian.
    Russia could not be left without ladies' medal. I was just a backup.
    Slutskaya skated short program well. She should not have stopped later. She
    didn't even try triple/triple combination. American girl, Sarah Hughes, risked
    and she made it! Under-rotated jumps? So what! Those who were not happy with
    competition results had to find something to pick on Sarah. They pointed that
    she wasn't artistic. I think Hughes looked brighter than Slutskaya. She was more
    professional. Slutskaya behaved like a whiner. Why did she had to cry and yell
    everywhere that 5.6 for presentation is a never before seen mix-up and
    make a galactic tragedy out of it?

    Interviewer: Did you say it to Irina's face?

    Masha: We don't talk to each other.

    Irina: So, you think Hughes deserved to be an Olympic champion?

    Masha: It would've been fair if Michelle Kwan won in Salt Lake City...
    I remember reading that. She's such a character. I also agree with her regarding Kwan, but I know that's an unpopular opinion as most people who disagreed with the SLC result are convinced Irina was robbed.

  15. #55

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    I would've given Butyrskaya the '98 Olympic bronze over Chen just because her skating was more interesting to me. Chen for me was rather boring if lovely. But really, they were both close enough that it could have gone either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Vanessa did not deserve a medal at the 2000 Worlds. That is crazy. She was 7th in the qualifying with a horrible skate and was lucky to be placed 4th in the short where Maria was the clear winner. Even if Vanessa had beaten Maria in the long, which I dont think she should have anyway, she would have been nowhere close to her overall.

    Nikodinov let her program at the 2001 Worlds fall apart on the last 90 seconds.

    Suguri is an umpolished skater who cant even extend her free leg properly.

    Szewcenko at the 1996 Worlds should have placed below Kwiatkowski.

    Slutskaya should have been 6th in the short at the 1998 Olympics but was given one of her usual gifts by being placed over a way better performance by Bonaly with a junior jump combination. Maybe 3rd in the long but 3rd in the long with 6th in the short would still place behind Maria being 3rd in the short and 4th in the long.
    Agreed. Also, Slutskaya at that time still looked too unrefined, too 'junior' for my taste. I don't think she should have been anywhere near a podium at that point in her career. I wouldn't have placed her 3rd in the LP either. Again, because she looked too 'junior' for my taste.

    Even more than Slutskaya, Hughes received the gift of the '02 Olympics being placed 4th after her awkward SP and well within striking distance of the podium. She shouldn't have been any higher than 6th or 7th imo. I'd even place her lower.
    Last edited by Sasha'sSpins; 06-09-2013 at 05:25 PM.

  16. #56

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    First of all, I loved Maria's skating and she has had a few unfair results/scoring in either SP or LP or sometimes both (2002 Oly SP scoring was unfair, IMO but it was not one of the options above).

    The only one I voted for was the 2000 NHK. Most of her other losses were justifiable, even though marginally. There were some close results against her, but I don't see those as obvious robberies. IMO she could have won the 1998 Oly bronze had she skated better in the LP. There is no way she could have won the gold at the 2000 worlds, based on how the top 3 skated in the LP. She had a gorgeous SP and was in first place but she needed to skate better in the LP. She skated well, but it was again a case of Oh so close.

    Her 2001 worlds LP performance was great artistically (I gave her a standing O.) and she delivered in both SP and LP, but Gold? No way! I would have given her the bronze over the juniorish Sarah, for sure. Michelle was fantastic in the LP and nobody could have beaten her, unless Irina had landed two 3-3 combinations. She was robbed of the bronze in 2001 but not of gold (as one of the options in this poll).
    Last edited by Vash01; 06-09-2013 at 06:09 PM.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    I think chanunderrated is referring to Kwan's underrotation of the 3F.
    The 6.0 did not pay attention to ur the way COP does. It's time we stopped using one system to judge past performances in another.

  18. #58
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    When it came to the jumps, the 6.0 was supposed to pay attention to take off, height, distance, landing, and flow. No?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    I think chanunderrated is referring to Kwan's underrotation of the 3F.
    It was more over-rotated than ur. But she controlled the landing, on one foot. So, not a mistake on that. Just not the best landing.

    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    When it came to the jumps, the 6.0 was supposed to pay attention to take off, height, distance, landing, and flow. No?
    Absolutely, and she probably had deduction since she came in 3rd after the SP.

  20. #60

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    I am on your side. Michelle actually won. The only way you could convince me otherwise is to explain what merits Slutskaya's slow and hackneyed performance of Tosca that night had to its credit. The triple loop from a difficult entrance and higher jumps was all I saw. The quality was poor. Kwan's FS was only lacking in the jump content compared to Hughes and the one major error. Otherwise it was a far livelier and lovelier piece of work, and she did have nearly as good of content as Slut. I am not sure that Slutskaya on the other hand performed Tosca very well at all. She looked so much better at the GPF. Her spiral sequence is such a dud that it may have biased me against her in terms of choreography and style. I need to go back and watch these performances but I am out of town at a funeral...

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