View Poll Results: Maria deserved these medals/wins in her career and was robbed of

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  • 1996 Worlds bronze

    24 61.54%
  • 1997 Grand Prix final gold (or silver)

    15 38.46%
  • 1997 Worlds bronze

    16 41.03%
  • 1998 Olympics bronze

    22 56.41%
  • 1998 Worlds silver

    16 41.03%
  • 2000 Worlds gold

    16 41.03%
  • 2000 NHK gold

    30 76.92%
  • 2001 Grand Prix final gold (based on how she skates winning NHK)

    6 15.38%
  • 2001 Worlds gold

    10 25.64%
  • 2002 Olympic gold (based on how she skates if she didnt quit after robbed in short)

    3 7.69%
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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    How do you believe Maria and Kira were treated wrongly by the Russian federation exactly?
    Both were restricted from international competition after under performing and thinking different although few Russian singles women ever performed better. Fear of punishment in addition to failure is not the best way to support some athletes.

  2. #22
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    I do agree about the 96 and 97 worlds for Bute over Slute and Gusmeroli respectively (she tanked the long). 2000 worlds you can argue, but really her performance there in the LP was pretty awful. I agree the judges didn't want that kind of program with mistakes to win.

    You can argue for silver at 01 worlds and third in 98 Olympics, but Bute let her nerves once again overtake there when it should've been simple for her to place higher.

  3. #23
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    Totally lost interest with that ridiculous overrated cow remark!! Op is horrible slutskaya hater and can't deal with slutskaya being better than Maria.

  4. #24
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    Reasonable arguments could be made in support of:

    1996 Worlds bronze
    1997 Worlds bronze
    1998 Olympics bronze
    2000 NHK gold

    1998 worlds - even if Maria deserved 2nd in the long, 5th place in the short program may have been a little too high for a completely popped combination.

  5. #25

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    I think people are re-writing history a bit for Maria Butryskaya at 2000 Worlds. I'm only talking about the LP results here and I thought Gusmerolli should have beaten Maria Butyrskaya in that phase of the competition. It's arguable, but Irina (though didn't perform up to her 2000 GPF standards) had a really solid performance with six triples and two triple/double combinations. Also, Irina did take two ordinals away from Kwan, who had an excellent performance (though I disagree with that). Did Bute take any ordinals away from Kwan?

    Plus, I'm sorry, but it's not as if Bute skated a routine on the level of Otonal or 17 Moments in Spring. She skated a blah version of Swan Lake, so she didn't really have an artistic edge with that LP. I hate to admit that because I loathe Irina's Carmen (especially that combo spin set to the very dramatic part of the Carmen and rushed ending and weird happy pose after she "stabbed" herself). I thought Gusmerolli was much more compelling than Bute that night even if she sort of front-loaded that routine and performed most of her spins at the very end of that routine.

    If anything, Bute wasn't robbed of winning gold by placing second in the LP, she robbed Gusmerolli of a higher LP placing.

  6. #26
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    The fed dumped her because she didn't even qualify for the free at 1993 worlds which meant there was no Russian lady at 1994 Olympics despite the fact that Markova and Butyrakaya finished 3rd and 4th at euros a moth before the Olympics

    Slutskaya and Markova were pushed to the fore in 1995 and 1996, the fed were looking towards soldatova and sokolova in 1998....Slutskaya bombed natiionals in 1999, didn't make the world team and Maria was given full support from the fed..Tada ...gold

  7. #27
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    It was such a shame that both Markova and Butyrskaya couldnt go to the 1994 Olympics (which they would have had Maria been top 10 at the 93 Worlds as she should have been capable of). They would have added an interesting subplot to the event, and they could have been the dark horses of that competition. Some of the judges had Markova and-or Butyrskaya above Baiul in the LP at Europeans and Baiul Europeans LP was actually better than her Olympics LP she won gold with, despite that she lost Europeans to Bonaly. It was especialy a shame for Markova whose peak was definitely 94-95 as her consistency gradually dissapeared to the point she was often struggling to land 1 or 2 clean triples in a long program in later years.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post
    Maria deserved the 2000 World title since she should have been 2nd in the long to win overall. A few others maybe. Other than that mostly no. She was a pretty average skater, nothing stood out.
    I also agree that Bute should have been second in the free (even if third, she should be below Gusmeroli, not Slutskaya), but Kwan should also have been second in the short, and so I think ultimately Kwan's win was right.

    The podium was right anyway, because Gusmeroli bombed qualifying.
    Last edited by Marco; 05-30-2013 at 04:53 AM.

  9. #29
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    I might have had Kwan 2nd in the short over Slutskaya had her triple flip been squeeky clean but while it was still technically clean it had a bit of a wobbly landing if I recall. So because of that I put her 3rd in the short behind Irina, rather than 2nd.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I fail to see how Buyrskaya should have beaten Slutskaya in the FS.
    Irina had only 1 more triple, and maybe not even that since her 2nd triple lutz was two footed so both really had only 5 clean triples. Maria's artistry is better so would give her 2nd in the freeskate based on the 2nd mark tiebreak. Then since I agreed with the qualifying and short program results that would lead to Maria winning overall based on factored points.

    Yeah, an average skater with plenty of Grand Prix Gold Medals, 3 Euro titles and World title. LOL...
    Maria mostly won medals and on rare occasion titles when other skaters F-ed up. She never won them purely on her own merit. Look at he Worlds she won. Yeah she skated well but it was a really weak field. Other than Kwan nobody was there. No Lipinski, no Cohen, no Slutskaya, and most of the ones there were either slumping, too old, too young, or strictly second tier. Even though she did beat Kwan who knows if she would have still won had Kwan skated 2 clean programs as well, maybe she still would have but maybe not.

    Then her European titles, even more the joke. At 98 Europeans she had a great long but was 5th or 7th in the short I think it was after 2 falls but won from there since Bonaly, Szewpenko, and Slutskaya skated so bad in the long she could come back from there. At the 99 Europeans it was a nothing field and she didnt do as good a long as Worlds with only 4 triples clean. At the 2002 Europeans she did a bad long and only won since Slutskaya fell in the short.

    What is special about her skating. Not jumps, not spins, certainly not spirals. Artistry is ok but nothing amazing. People just like her since she is pretty and she is a great fighter who other than her problem with nerves made the most and got more than she ought to out of limited talent. I also heard she said something that she never wanted her son to be gay which indicated she was homophobic too, nothing to do with her skating yeah but makes it harder for me to like her.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post
    Irina had only 1 more triple, and maybe not even that since her 2nd triple lutz was two footed

    It wasn't.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post


    What is special about her skating. Not jumps, not spins, certainly not spirals. Artistry is ok but nothing amazing. P.
    Special is in the eye of the beholder. I think Maria's artistry was phenomenal. She did a great job choreographing and interpreting music. She not only got the overall mood right when she skated, she paid attention to musical dynamics and tempo. Her triple loop was one of the best I've ever seen and her triple lutz was one of the better ones of her era. Yes, it's true that her beauty didn't hurt her, nor did her gorgeous costumes. Her programs were consistently (always?) better in an artistic sense than Slutskaya's and Hughes's by a long way. If you want to get really specific, I think many people would consider her maturity and sexiness to be very special, and I'm not referring to her physical sexiness but the sensual interpretation she often gave.

  13. #33
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    This thread really makes me miss my/our Masha.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post
    What is special about her skating. Not jumps, not spins, certainly not spirals.
    She had a beautiful camel spin and a true lutz.

    I also heard she said something that she never wanted her son to be gay which indicated she was homophobic too, nothing to do with her skating yeah but makes it harder for me to like her.
    Hm. The closest thing to such a statement I found was in this (translated? rephrased?) interview, in which homosexuality was never mentioned but masculinity was ("figure skating isn't a men's sport"), and which may or may not be based in homophobia.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohashibiles View Post
    I might have had Kwan 2nd in the short over Slutskaya had her triple flip been squeeky clean but while it was still technically clean it had a bit of a wobbly landing if I recall. So because of that I put her 3rd in the short behind Irina, rather than 2nd.
    Slutskaya had zero flow out of her combination jump and her final layback travelled poorly. What bugged me most was that she had 3 consecutive jumping passes in the opening. Again, I go back to the point that I don't think in 2000 Kwan and Slutskaya were on equal grounds in presentation.

  16. #36
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    I always thought one of Maria's strengths was her ability to interpret music.

    In 1993 she skated to Latin selections, 1994 techno and Kitaro (now this was a competition she was under placed in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5sRk-mpC4Q and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POcVjSr9W9U), Malaguena, Otonal, etc.

    My dream was for her to skate to a tango FS in Salt Lake City, but by then she was only skating to slow music to focus on jumps.

  17. #37
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    I am confused. The thread starter said she deserved the silver or bronze overall at the 2001 Worlds but put in the poll the 2001 Worlds gold. So I dont know how to vote on that. I do think she was robbed of the silver or bronze at the 2001 Worlds which is what was said in the opening post, but not the 2001 Worlds gold which was on the poll. Can someone help me with which it is supposed to be.

  18. #38
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    Anyway I dont think Maria is a strong skater. She was probably undermarked and unlucky in that sense as given the competitions and other skaters she deserved a few more results, but as I mentioned in the weakest competition thread she skated in a weak era where other than Michelle and Irina there was nobody that good most of the time. In most eras she wouldnt even be a contender considering all the flaws in her skating, and while some things very good nothing truly outstanding in her skating either.

  19. #39

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    I don't know, Maria Butyrskaya's Otonal and 17 Moments in Spring performances at 1999 and 2001 Worlds would have been hard to beat in any previous era. Not unbeatable, of course, but seven triples with a 3/3 sequence and engaging choreography (not to mention a true Lutz, a great camel spin, a classic sit spin, nice variety in the combination spin) was pretty rare prior to the mid-1990s.

  20. #40
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    Nobody cared about her lutz in any prior era. There would have been more attention paid to the awkward landing in Seventeen Moments of Spring than the BOE takeoff.

    I appreciate your defending her, though, because that 2001 Seventeen Moments of Spring Worlds performance was much better than Slutskaya's Don Quixote. It was in fact a masterpiece artistically speaking.

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