View Poll Results: Maria deserved these medals/wins in her career and was robbed of

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  • 1996 Worlds bronze

    24 61.54%
  • 1997 Grand Prix final gold (or silver)

    15 38.46%
  • 1997 Worlds bronze

    16 41.03%
  • 1998 Olympics bronze

    22 56.41%
  • 1998 Worlds silver

    16 41.03%
  • 2000 Worlds gold

    16 41.03%
  • 2000 NHK gold

    30 76.92%
  • 2001 Grand Prix final gold (based on how she skates winning NHK)

    6 15.38%
  • 2001 Worlds gold

    10 25.64%
  • 2002 Olympic gold (based on how she skates if she didnt quit after robbed in short)

    3 7.69%
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I am on your side. Michelle actually won. The only way you could convince me otherwise is to explain what merits Slutskaya's slow and hackneyed performance of Tosca that night had to its credit. The triple loop from a difficult entrance and higher jumps was all I saw.

    She had better spins as well. Even the US judge admitted that and placed Slustkaya ahead of Kwan (even though he wrongly placed Hughes ahead ).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I am on your side. Michelle actually won. The only way you could convince me otherwise is to explain what merits Slutskaya's slow and hackneyed performance of Tosca that night had to its credit. The triple loop from a difficult entrance and higher jumps was all I saw. The quality was poor. Kwan's FS was only lacking in the jump content compared to Hughes and the one major error. Otherwise it was a far livelier and lovelier piece of work, and she did have nearly as good of content as Slut. I am not sure that Slutskaya on the other hand performed Tosca very well at all. She looked so much better at the GPF. Her spiral sequence is such a dud that it may have biased me against her in terms of choreography and style. I need to go back and watch these performances but I am out of town at a funeral...

    I am not sure whether you are referring to SLC or the 2002 Worlds. However SLC the obvious reason she was placed ahead of Kwan in the LP was Kwan having a fall, although Irina's performance with glaring mistakes, less clean triples than Hughes, Kwan, or even Cohen, and all its other flaws, could easily have been placed lower all the same. At the 2002 Worlds, well the short program results guaranteed Irina winning whether she or Kwan won the LP was irrelevant, so they probably gave her the LP when both skated about the same as a cherry on top and to give her inevitable win a bit more glow.

    Irina is definitely in general an overscored and overrated skater though, the same way Maria is an underscored and underrated one. It all cames down to the strength of the Russian fed. and who they prefer.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    First of all, I loved Maria's skating and she has had a few unfair results/scoring in either SP or LP or sometimes both (2002 Oly SP scoring was unfair, IMO but it was not one of the options above).

    The only one I voted for was the 2000 NHK. Most of her other losses were justifiable, even though marginally. There were some close results against her, but I don't see those as obvious robberies. IMO she could have won the 1998 Oly bronze had she skated better in the LP. There is no way she could have won the gold at the 2000 worlds, based on how the top 3 skated in the LP. She had a gorgeous SP and was in first place but she needed to skate better in the LP. She skated well, but it was again a case of Oh so close.

    Her 2001 worlds LP performance was great artistically (I gave her a standing O.) and she delivered in both SP and LP, but Gold? No way! I would have given her the bronze over the juniorish Sarah, for sure. Michelle was fantastic in the LP and nobody could have beaten her, unless Irina had landed two 3-3 combinations. She was robbed of the bronze in 2001 but not of gold (as one of the options in this poll).

    I meant silver or bronze at the 2001 Worlds. I put gold in the poll by accident but if you read my opening post you will see that is not what I meant. I would have put Maria 4th in her qualifying round for her bad skate as she was. However I had her 2nd in the short behind Irina, even though Michelle and Angela had excellent shorts too so 4th could be justified, not 5th behind Hughes. I had her 2nd in the long over Irina, and Irina only 4th in the long since her long was horrible there. With those placements Maria could have even won silver overall, although I would have been fine with bronze too. 4th behind Hughes, no way.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    I am not sure whether you are referring to SLC or the 2002 Worlds. However SLC the obvious reason she was placed ahead of Kwan in the LP was Kwan having a fall, although Irina's performance with glaring mistakes, less clean triples than Hughes, Kwan, or even Cohen, and all its other flaws, could easily have been placed lower all the same.

    Irina with less clean triples than Kwan? Certainly not. Irina had six triples with one bad landing and Kwan had 5 clean triples. I don't remember how many clean triples Cohen had but I doubt it was more than 5 (I think like Kwan she had one fall and one two-foot).
    Hughes had 2-4 clean triples depending how harsh you are on underrotation.

  5. #65

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    The thing that bothered me in 2001 & 2002 was the coltish Hughes being placed ahead of the mature Maria. It's not like Maria was falling on the jumps, and Hughes jumps were almost always flawed. She did a nice layback, but that's about it where spins are concerned.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Irina is definitely in general an overscored and overrated skater though, the same way Maria is an underscored and underrated one. It all cames down to the strength of the Russian fed. and who they prefer.
    I agree with this.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Irina with less clean triples than Kwan? Certainly not. Irina had six triples with one bad landing and Kwan had 5 clean triples. I don't remember how many clean triples Cohen had but I doubt it was more than 5 (I think like Kwan she had one fall and one two-foot).
    Hughes had 2-4 clean triples depending how harsh you are on underrotation.
    Sasha Cohen landed 6 clean triples at 2002 Olympics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6wsyPTtaeM
    She attempted a 7 triples program including a 3Lz/3Toe, but fell on the 3Toe.
    Of course, both Lutz were Flutz, and the fall on the 3Lz/3T combo was because the 3T was underrotated.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Sasha Cohen landed 6 clean triples at 2002 Olympics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6wsyPTtaeM
    She attempted a 7 triples program including a 3Lz/3Toe, but fell on the 3Toe.
    Of course, both Lutz were Flutz, and the fall on the 3Lz/3T combo was because the 3T was underrotated.

    Thanks. The flip or 2nd flutz (or both) might have had a slight touch-down of the free foot but other than that she had 6 more or less clean triples.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    The thing that bothered me in 2001 & 2002 was the coltish Hughes being placed ahead of the mature Maria. It's not like Maria was falling on the jumps, and Hughes jumps were almost always flawed. She did a nice layback, but that's about it where spins are concerned.
    Basically Maria had to keep up with Michelle and Irina and still be seen as a serious rival for the gold to them, even if only as 3rd favorite. When she began to fall further behind them, especialy with her poor 2000 fall skating, the judges probably figured it was time to move some new stars into the top 3. That was what happened. It isnt right but that is skating.

    People forget had Maria won that NHK over Irina she would have been the only women unbeaten in the grand prix. Michelle had already lost to Irina, and Irina would then have lost to Maria. Maria would have won all 3 of her events, Irina 2 of 3, Michelle only 1. Imagine how much more momentum and boost that might have given her, which is what I was thinking with some of my poll options.

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