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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by PairSk8Fan View Post
    Guuuuuuuuurllllllll ..... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. The entire post is a S T RRRRR eeeeeeeeeeeeeee t chhhhhhhh.

    Not only is it a stretch, I believe it is total, ummm HOOOOOOEY.
    Seriously. I feel like people are just repeating the same criticisms over and over for four seasons straight without acknowledging improvements made. This goes to almost every skater who has had some technical issues but made strides to improve. Repetition isn't truth.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    WOW! Talk about personal dislike. May be you are afraid that D&W may dethrone your beloved V&M?
    Stop trying to make this about V/M vs. D/W there are other great teams and this thread is about P/B. Thats how I understood marathongirl76 comment. There are better teams out there than D/W and P/B is one of them because their style isn't so bland (even though I have to admit I didn't like their programs under Krylova. Although, I find in the last quad only them and V/M and perhaps Z/G have made ice dance more refreshing by bringing new and interesting stuff) and I, too am tired of seeing them getting shafted.

  3. #103
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    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

    Another article but nothing new. Just repeating the basic facts. I just thought it was interesting they listed only Chock/Bates and Tobias/Stagniunas. No Cappellini/Lanotte, of course they also failed to mention P&B's poor showing at Worlds also had to do with an injury and lack of training so maybe it means nothing but I am interested to hear what they think about it all.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    WOW! Talk about personal dislike. May be you are afraid that D&W may dethrone your beloved V&M?
    I thought they already did.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    I thought they already did.
    Uh oh...

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    The thing about C&L is I never feel like they pass anyone for good. Last Worlds they beat B&S, but this year were passed by them. This Worlds they beat P&B, but I still consider P&B the stronger skaters. The CoP allows for dancers to win on the day when someone else is having technical problems, but it will be hard for C&L to permanently pass a team like P&B because C&L's skating skills are much weaker and they lack speed. I don't see them as the current 4th best team in the world. Even I&K would pass them easily (from 9th at Worlds) with a good skate next season. Speed is everything now, apparently, and C&L need to work on it to be considered part of the upper echelon.

    ...
    It seems to me last seasons results put them pretty darn close the upper echelon. P&B were injured so we can't evaluate C&L vis-a-vis them last season, but they finished ahead of B&S in the Free Dance at worlds and were neck-in-neck with them a lot. Top Four? Top Five? They are certainly ahead of WeaPo at this point. I think they are being under-rated by a lot of people.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

  7. #107

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    It is hard for me to be unbiased about C/L. Do I like them because they skate so good or because they are so gorgeous to look at? I'm not sure.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Seriously. I feel like people are just repeating the same criticisms over and over for four seasons straight without acknowledging improvements made. This goes to almost every skater who has had some technical issues but made strides to improve. Repetition isn't truth.
    My favorite line of the month.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    It seems to me last seasons results put them pretty darn close the upper echelon. P&B were injured so we can't evaluate C&L vis-a-vis them last season, but they finished ahead of B&S in the Free Dance at worlds and were neck-in-neck with them a lot. Top Four? Top Five? They are certainly ahead of WeaPo at this point. I think they are being under-rated by a lot of people.
    I like C&L, but their results need to be consistent over the season for me to consider them solidly at the top. P&B and W&P were injured, I&K had a terrible Worlds. C&L lost to both B&S and I&K at Euros. So, they've done well keeping their nerve together and taking advantage of others' mistakes (which is a big deal for them because C&L used to make mistakes much more), but I think there's at least 5 teams the judges prefer to C&L if those teams skate clean.

  10. #110

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    Not going to lie, I really wanted the Shibutanis to move to Shpilband. He has coached them before (to a bronze medal at Worlds with Zueva) and the Shibs keep suffering because of TES issues. Their PCS aren't going to be as high as other teams so they do need to improve on that, but they can't afford to give away TES points that they used to be able to bank on either.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Seriously. I feel like people are just repeating the same criticisms over and over for four seasons straight without acknowledging improvements made. This goes to almost every skater who has had some technical issues but made strides to improve. Repetition isn't truth.
    Isn't this also true of the "they've improved" line though? I keep reading how D&W have improved, but I'm seeing similar choreography to their 2009 and 2010 FDs, with similar construction and similar, if not outright the same, elements. I see the same line and posture issues, and space between them in the pattern dances. They haven't changed up their twizzles in 5 years; other teams do. I've yet to see a detailed breakdown of all these improvements, just vague assertions about their passion, connection, and speed. I imagine anyone would get better at executing similar moves over several years, so I don't see them as an outstanding example of an improvement arc. The other poster was OTT in declaring they don't deserve to be in the top 10, but at least he/she gave skating related reasons for their opinion which other people can then dispute.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Isn't this also true of the "they've improved" line though? I keep reading how D&W have improved, but I'm seeing similar choreography to their 2009 and 2010 FDs, with similar construction and similar, if not outright the same, elements. I see the same line and posture issues, and space between them in the pattern dances. They haven't changed up their twizzles in 5 years; other teams do. I've yet to see a detailed breakdown of all these improvements, just vague assertions about their passion, connection, and speed. I imagine anyone would get better at executing similar moves over several years, so I don't see them as an outstanding example of an improvement arc. The other poster was OTT in declaring they don't deserve to be in the top 10, but at least he/she gave skating related reasons for their opinion which other people can then dispute.
    Well, there are tons of other threads where this has been discussed. Many gave reasons how D/W have improved their lines, holds, edges (especially Meryl), and controlling their speed. Their twizzles and lifts might be similar season after season, but they were already some of the highest scored elements since IJS was implemented and are continually scored high.

    Plus, I think if one is going to argue that the judges are judging them incorrectly, then the burden of persuasion is on that person to show where and how the judges got it wrong. I mean making vague comments about them having no edging, skipping around, deserving to be out of the top 9 may be skating-related reasons, but I wouldn't necessarily call them substantive.

    Anyway, someone who is actually a fan of Davis/White (I personally prefer Virtue/Moir much more myself) can take over for me because I have not scrutinized the evolution of Davis/White's skills to an extent that a dedicated fan or hater would have. I'm only going by my casual fan's observations and I definitely noticed a marked improvement from 2010 to 2013.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    You'd probably be more convincing if you're statements wouldn't be so primitive and massively exaggerated. Now they just show that you haven't really been paying attention to Davis/White's skating, and even to some things in Tessa and Scott's skating. And, what's worse - you are inciting hostility even in people who would probably listen if things were explained to them in a more accurate and realistic manner. I am saying that even though I am a Tessa and Scott fan.

    I've been paying plenty of attention to D/W's skating, and seeing them skate at Worlds in London further validated why I don't like their skating: bent knees and bodies in all their positions, scrappy stroking, over-the-top expression, and entirely forgettable programs that don't make any impact on me in the way of originality, creativity or difficulty.

    Back to the thread topic, if we're going to compare D/W to to P/B, let's take a look by elements: D/W's so-called speed is not generated from soft knee bends and the blade, but rather, from the toe-picks, whereas P/B are regularly praised for their soft knees and as such, ability to generate fluid speed; D/W hop into their twizzles, which falsely creates the illusion of momentum, as compared to P/B's skating into and out of theirs; P/B's twizzles maintain speed and cover more ice, and they vary their arm movements to keep in character of their music, while D/W have been doing the exact same twizzle set (the added the hop in 2011); P/B's lifts, when show better balance and control on both their parts, and have them entering and exiting into them on one foot, and the general absence of clutching, grabbing and holding onto each other for dear life life D/W; and P/B's ability to interpret many different types of music and characters convincingly. I didn't much care for their Stones FD (because I didn't think it was overall as difficult as past FDs of theirs, but they were true to the theme.

    P/B still lack the refinement and difficulty (in their lifts) to really challenge V/M, but with good material and cleaned up technique under Igor, they should be back on the podium next season.
    Last edited by marathongirl76; 05-23-2013 at 01:52 AM.

  14. #114
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    Totally agree with you here...titles should not be won by applause meter, but on the basis on actual content under the COP system. I think though there is still lots of ambiguity around the ice dance scoring as compared to the other disciplines. This is further perpetuated by the the mostly well-meaning but ignorant commentators, and utterly ignorant media.





    Change for the sake of change isn't great either. It too bad the fans think that the same team winning for more than 2 seasons in a row is wrong somehow. It may be boring to some but for me it's more an indication of how strong technically and artistically certain teams are. I love seeing teams that are good enough to come back year after year and continue to improve and stay ahead of the pack. I realize that puts me in the minority. I hate the idea of taking turns and passing titles back and forth simply to keep up the excitement for the audience. How about really inform the audience about all the ins and outs of icedance. Not give informative commentary only to set it off/counter it with double standards and use of passive/aggressive barbs directed at the less popular teams/teams that the American audience might not appreciate as much. Remarks meant to make the audience think that some teams are better than they are and others are worse than they are.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    It is hard for me to be unbiased about C/L. Do I like them because they skate so good or because they are so gorgeous to look at? I'm not sure.
    If I'm honest, I'm gonna say a bit of both. I loved their Requiem for a Dream for the way it's concept actually was woven into the choreography, but frankly, I think Anna was so effin' gorgeous in that dance that I couldn't even be remotely impartial. I think they have lovely chemistry and are very attractive on the ice, and when they have programs that work for them (La Strada, their Latin SD) they're very memorable. I can't overlook her poorer skating skills and I expect they'll be the ones left out next season (I expect them to drop of the European podium/Olympic top five), but I do think they're enjoyable to watch

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Seriously. I feel like people are just repeating the same criticisms over and over for four seasons straight without acknowledging improvements made. This goes to almost every skater who has had some technical issues but made strides to improve. Repetition isn't truth.
    What improvements, exactly? Their line/posture: still poor; twizzles: still doing two twizzle sets, in contrast to most other teams in the top 10 who are doing three twizzle sets, covering more ice, maintaining speed and varying their arm movements in character with the music (and no, that hop into D/W's twizzles does not make it harder, it is creating false momentum); their lifts: two footed skating into and out of them, with poor/facile positions, lots of clutching, grabbing, and hanginng out to each other for dear life instead of using their core strength to hold their positions. Their so-called speed is not generated from soft knees and the blade, but rather, picking along the ice, and kicking up snow in the process.
    Last edited by marathongirl76; 05-22-2013 at 02:43 AM.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post
    V&M are in a league of their own; it is D&W that are totally over-rated. Their basic skating technique is non-existent; they pick across the ice and don't have any depth of edge, and they just skip and hop into and and between their elements. They have no extension or refinement in their movements; their lifts are basic and are made to fool the eye that they are difficult, when they are not.

    DW shouldn't even be even in the top 10, much less World Champs.

    P&B, W&P, C&L, B&S, heck, even that other Russian team (names elude me at the moment), those of the Ghost-hot-mess-of-a-program-infamy, have solid technique. They're not hacking it it like D & W.

    I've always liked P & B, but they always see to falter in big competitions and they lack V & M's refinement. But their basic technique is beautiful, and they always come up with good programs; looking forward to their programs this season.
    You are a very funny person.
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  18. #118
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    marathongirl76 - Most FSU posters put their comments under the quoted section of text. It makes the conversation easier to follow.

    Also, there is a multi-quote feature: if you click that little box under each post with a quote sign and a plus sign, then hit "reply with quote" for the last post you want to quote, you will get a reply box featuring all three posts in separate quote boxes, so you can write underneath each one. Hope that makes sense.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    marathongirl76 - Most FSU posters put their comments under the quoted section of text. It makes the conversation easier to follow.

    Also, there is a multi-quote feature: if you click that little box under each post with a quote sign and a plus sign, then hit "reply with quote" for the last post you want to quote, you will get a reply box featuring all three posts in separate quote boxes, so you can write underneath each one. Hope that makes sense.
    Thanks for the tip...wanted to reference one section of the text, and I somehow deleted it all, and I couldn't delete the whole entire post and start from scratch.

  20. #120

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    I'm glad they are moving to Shpilband. K&P are great, but I think they are too emotionally involved with W&P to be 100% in P/B's corner.

    Of course C/L are arguably greater competition for bronze now, but I don't see the same issues developing in Igor's camp.

    Best of luck to all the teams this year!
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