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  1. #321
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    Great post! Your explanation hit the mark!! I am in total agreement with your analysis of how the judging system has deteriorated and hence the quality ice dance skating skills. It has become a circus act on blades.

  2. #322
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    Great post Jun Y! Your explanation hit the mark!! I am in total agreement with your analysis of how the judging system has deteriorated and hence the quality ice dance skating skills. It has become a circus act on blades.

  3. #323
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    Yes, key points were implemented to try to make the judging more objective: you had two-time Olympic, multiple-time Worlds gold medalist Evgeni Platov saying that when he was competing CDs, it didn't matter if he or his partner performed on flats, did the mohawks, choctaws, et al. -- the hard stuff -- on the wrong edges, etc. Like everything else in CoP, when the judges didn't show consistency in judging technical aspects, that responsibility was transferred to the technical panel.

    There are other judged sports where a single judge is responsible for a given aspect of technique and is giving the lone mark. While one person on the technical panel is watching the man and another is watching the woman, when the keys points are distributed among the genders, the judgements can balance each other out in the long run.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    When I wrote steps/key points, key points/"key" steps was what I actually meant, simply the way how I wrote that was unclear. I know full well that levels are not determined (by the technical panel) on all steps, but just on key points. By the way, there are three key points in each pattern (or part of the pattern), not four. Level 1 is when all three key points are missed, and 4 is when all three are done correctly .
    Yeah, brain freeze moment there, it's three not four. I just wanted to point out that in evaluating the GOE the judges are supposed to take into account how much % of the pattern was done on correct edges. So while the technical panel is only responsible for checking the edges on three steps (why only three? time contraints?), the judges are theoretically supposed to be checking all the edges. Which obviously isn't very realistic and in reality it probably never happens.

    When you look at the judging criteria for Ice Dance, it is much more detailed than the one for Singles and Pairs. There is much more information, much more criteria, it is much tighter. However, more doesn't always equal better. The problem with the Ice Dance judging criteria is that it offers a lot of rules but doesn't seem to consider at all the practicality of applying them. Therefore most of it is just a waste of (electronic) paper.

    It is a real shame because I strongly believe that it is possible to develop a system which is both quite detailed AND takes into account the practical side of how you actually apply it. Sadly ISU doesn't even seem to be trying to develop something along those lines.

    Single and Pairs criteria is full of holes and very imprecise, so that anything goes really. Ice Dance criteria is extremely dense but totally impractical.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It would be cool to have an additional pattern created by the skaters but keep the one compulsory pattern at least!
    There is or was a "progressive dance" that was just that. The first pattern was the CD steps, then in subsequent repetitions, the skaters added more and more steps of their own. I forget how many repetitions there were in all. I agree it would be interesting to watch, plus have the benefit of being quite different from the free dance.

    While that concept would have been doable under 6.0, the current scoring system needs elements to judge, and it would be hard to break a progressive dance into scorable technical elements.

    How often is a fan's visual judgment on a key point agrees with the protocol? And, if your judgment differs from the protocol, should we believe the fan or the caller on site?
    Oh, gosh. To me this is a no brainer. The caller has a better vantage point than a fan watching from the stand or at home or from a youtube video. He also has the benefit of replays. He also knows a lot more what he is talking about and has a lot more experience deciding when to say an edge is a clear enough edge. (Plus, he is not a fan calling based on what he wants to see.)

    That said, there is no question that some callers are more exacting than others. IMO the same is true about edges and URs in singles.

    My biggest beef with the whole Key Steps system of calling CD patterns in the SD is that it is not the same as the way CD patterns are scored at the lower levels that still have a separate CD. That means that skaters learn and practice them one way when competing them, then find they need to re-learn them with a different focus once they get to juniors. I also agree the huge weakness of key steps is that in basically ignores the majority of the steps in the pattern. I guess those do still go into GOE, but still.
    Last edited by Susan M; 11-13-2013 at 06:56 PM.

  6. #326
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    The Key Points in the SD already have levels. If additional steps were added, they'd be leveled. One continuous piece of music chosen by the skater, execution of the CD twice, with five seconds to reset into original set pattern (circular in the same direction using the whole ice) in the same genre (leveled). They could let the skaters start and end with 15-20 seconds to set up and execute a single element, twizzles set and a lift, one of each at either end. They'd still have five leveled elements in the SD, but the non-step elements wouldn't interrupt the footwork or the dancing, there would be a coherent theme and musical choice -- there's nothing to stop them from chosing a piece music that had a natural speed or character change without musical cuts, like the intro of a Strauss waltz -- and they'd have to show two iterations of the CD to compare the first and second pattern.

    The younger skaters should be learning the key points and doing them properly in the first place. The dances they do in pre-novice and novice in Canada are completely different dances, anyway.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    While that concept would have been doable under 6.0, the current scoring system needs elements to judge, and it would be hard to break a progressive dance into scorable technical elements.
    Not really. Just give it a level like you do with step sequences.

  8. #328
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    Just give it a level like you do with step sequences.
    To do that, they would have to specify required elements and they couldn't just leave it as free form as would be necessary to make it truly feel like the CD building into an original pattern. They likely would specify a lift, one twizzle sequence and one no touch sequence, although I hate those). So, for example, the dance could consist of
    one full pattern of CD (scored as one or two elements depending on the dance)
    steps 1-14 from the pattern + twizzles + steps 24-32 from the pattern
    steps 1-14 from the pattern + no touch seq + lift and unscored choreo.

    By adding in the required elements (in place of free-form choreo) it ends up looking not terribly different from the SD, so what's the point?

  9. #329
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    An original set pattern might have additional requirements, like taking up the whole ice surface and going in the same direction as the CD, but it could be leveled like any other step sequence, with all of the technical possibilities of a step sequence.

    Adding in required elements like twizzles and lifts at the beginning and end of the program does not interrupt the CD and the OSP, which is does now in the SD, where the only requirement is when there is a single CD circuit, not true for all of the SD CD patterns to date. Almost every couple ended their CD's with a lift, and it would make little difference if they ended a revised SD with one.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #330

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    Great insights in this discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcnative View Post
    THANK YOU SO MUCH for this analysis. It's very helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Thanks Bournekraatzfan.
    No problem
    Very nice to see them get those key points at TEB. I really love their interpretation of this pattern and i can't wait to see it at GPF. Allez Nathalie et Fabian!

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