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  1. #281
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    I honestly think their FD has a lot of potential. I really like the details in the movement, the musical nuances as expressed through their bodies.

  2. #282
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    It's quirky, fun, engaging, voidy, and has cool hair and sexy lipstick. I see a whole lot to love. I hope they medal at Olys. They have been one of my favorite teams for a decade now, since I saw her lick her paw and rub her cat ears in 05. In spite of Navkas headband bedazzling us all, they still managed to be voidy.

    And on that note how the heck did Ice Dance get so damn generic and boring in 10 years? I mean between the million D/S's D/L and the like we were spoiled friggen rotten! I've seen enough lovey dovey, Fred Estaire, o-faced Ethel Merman happy go lucky isn't it swell tra-la-la ice dance programs to last a lifetime at this point.
    Last edited by Karpenko; 11-09-2013 at 10:23 AM.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karpenko View Post
    And on that note how the heck did Ice Dance get so damn generic and boring in 10 years? I mean between the million D/S's D/L and the like we were spoiled friggen rotten! I've seen enough lovey dovey, Fred Estaire, o-faced Ethel Merman happy go lucky isn't it swell tra-la-la ice dance programs to last a lifetime at this point.
    Blame Zueva!

  4. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karpenko View Post
    It's quirky, fun, engaging, voidy, and has cool hair and sexy lipstick. I see a whole lot to love. I hope they medal at Olys. They have been one of my favorite teams for a decade now, since I saw her lick her paw and rub her cat ears in 05. In spite of Navkas headband bedazzling us all, they still managed to be voidy.

    And on that note how the heck did Ice Dance get so damn generic and boring in 10 years? I mean between the million D/S's D/L and the like we were spoiled friggen rotten! I've seen enough lovey dovey, Fred Estaire, o-faced Ethel Merman happy go lucky isn't it swell tra-la-la ice dance programs to last a lifetime at this point.
    Because we had years of drudgery and over-dramatic dances as if they all went to the school of Bestemianova/Bukin to last a lifetime. This was just a natural reaction, because at the time, the ballroom dances were the unusual ones.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Because we had years of drudgery and over-dramatic dances as if they all went to the school of Bestemianova/Bukin to last a lifetime. This was just a natural reaction, because at the time, the ballroom dances were the unusual ones.
    There are more than those two options for free dances, though - as P/B, along with some other teams, have shown.

  6. #286

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    There are more than those two options for free dances, though - as P/B, along with some other teams, have shown.
    Of course. But you know how skaters/coaches tend to just go into extremes. Nuance and gray areas aren't really their strong suit.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Of course. But you know how skaters/coaches tend to just go into extremes. Nuance and gray areas aren't really their strong suit.
    True. I'm thinking back to 2008 Worlds, and while I didn't like every free dance, there seemed to be a lot more variety than there is now. Once the Shpilband/Zoueva teams zoomed up the standings, that became the standard and there aren't a lot of teams who really try to come up with interesting concepts as P/B do (not always successfully, I'll allow).

  8. #288
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    There was also a horrible tendency that continued even after the transition from 6.0 to IJS, where ranking was impossibly set in stone, to require teams that wanted to move into Top 8-10 to appear "mature" with empty uber-drama and hair tossing. Then there were the teams that didn't move up and were stuck there. It was like watching really bad adolescence.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcnative View Post
    Can anybody evaluate P/Bs Finnstepp and point out where they were lacking?
    I'm no expert, but here are my guesses as to where/why key points were missed.

    Key Point 2 on the first Finnstep sequence:
    The problem occurs on the lady’s step 21, a twizzle of 1.5 rotations entered into on a right back inside edge and exited on a right forward outside edge. Nathalie performs this step with the correct entry edge but comes out on a flat and then leans onto the correct edge. In order to get credit for this step she has to come out of the twizzle on the correct edge. I am posting a video of the whole key point (steps 20 and 21) but you really want to be looking at the video at 2:12, which is when Nathalie exits the twizzle. The camera angle was excellent here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvF...outu.be&t=130s

    I agree with the call but I'm not sure it would have been the same at SA. A few of us are discussing the calling for this key point over here:

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...ic-gold/page10

    Second Finnstep Sequence:

    Here is the video of the first two key points of the second sequence (they are occurring simultaneously as KP1 is the lady’s steps and KP2 is the man’s steps).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvF...outu.be&t=138s

    Key Point 1:
    This step is a left forward outside edge to right back inside edge swing closed choctaw with a subsequent change to an outside edge (still on the right foot). This edge becomes the entry edge for a twizzle of 1.5 rotations with a right forward inside exit edge. It looks like Nathalie doesn't show a clear enough right back inside edge to exit the choctaw (step 32). If you pause it at the moment she changes the edge (beginning of 2:19), you can see that her weight doesn't look to be quite on the back side of the blade’s rocker to facilitate with the edge.

    Key Point 2:
    The first part of this key point is the same for him (the LFO to RBI swing closed choctaw). Fabian then has to perform an open mohawk on this same right back inside edge, exiting on a left forward inside edge. This looked very clean to me. He then steps onto his right forward inside edge (again, he executed this cleanly) and performs a single twizzle, and is then supposed to exit on a right forward inside edge and slide to a halt on this edge. We don’t get a good angle of this and the snow from the slide obscures the view of the blade, but based on how clean everything else in steps 32 and 33 were for him, I would guess that the issue was on the exit from the twizzle to the slide into stop (2:22), which is supposed to be a performed on a right forward inside edge. I was surprised he didn’t get credit for this step.

    Key Point 3:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvF...outu.be&t=155s

    This is a left forward inside to right back outside closed choctaw with free leg crossed behind followed by a three turn on that right back outside edge, and then a twizzle of 1.5 rotations entered into on a right forward inside edge. In the choctaw in step 64 when Nathalie changes edges (very beginning of 2:36) she doesn’t quite show a clear right back outside edge (she again appears to have gotten a little forward on the rocker of her blade).

    I honestly think this was just a bit of a rough outing. I am thinking that, due to debut jitters, Nathalie had a hard time settling onto her blades. I have to say, though, that I absolutely loved Nathalie’s little shimmy in the crossing paths section of the Finnstep. How many teams do something special like that with the pattern dance?
    I hope they rework this SD to include more of Fosse's choreo. They are more than capable of doing it. I particularly like how Nathalie works movement through her torso. She can really move.

  10. #290
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    It's all fine and dandy to look at the protocols and explain backward why a team gets credit for a key point and why another team doesn't, but can you honestly look at each video and determine whether every key point is met? How often is a fan's visual judgment on a key point agrees with the protocol? And, if your judgment differs from the protocol, should we believe the fan or the caller on site?

    I tried this myself a few times and I can never make heads and tails of the callers' judgment on key points in a consistent way. I want to blame it on different camera angles, blurriness/quality, and lack of slow motion on YouTube videos, but I've also tried to do it in live competition (I stared really hard), and I still don't get why someone gets a Y or a N in a protocol because what I saw was consistent with the protocol with a regularity no better than chance. Either my eyes are not believable or the callers are not consistent, or both.

    For example, look at the same KP in FS2 by two teams in the video below:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVgO8FMO2NI&t=114s
    and:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvF...outu.be&t=155s

    It looks to me that both female partners had about the same lean on the RBO exit of the choctaw. But one got Y and one got N. Can you predict that before checking the protocols? I can't. How much of an outside edge is clear enough to get a Y? Who says? (Or this -- How deep do the edges have to be? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06mc7qKR6dc&t=118s)

    Or, for FS1KP2, compare the same KP in two couples below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxvF...outu.be&t=130s
    and
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVgO8FMO2NI&t=89s

    How massively different are the girls' exist edges? It seems pretty physically impossible to demand that the exit edge on a twizzle has to lean very far in order to get credit. Twizzles have to be done with the body upright. Why is it so bad that, at the conclusion of a twizzle, the skater is upright? It's not an edge turn. The KP is supposed to be about the twizzle overall, isn't it? Seems to me that credit is due when the twizzle is done reasonably well without stumble or stutter or 3-turn like.

    And, it seems to me, that most of the time the judgment of what is "clear edge" is pretty subjective and easily at risk of inconsistency and bias. Of course, I have to acknowledge that official callers have the advantage of (vastly more) experience, better camera angle, and slow motion replay, over average fans staring at the screen or even first-row live competition.

    Regardless, for something so minute and so subjective, I can't help but question the value of key points in judging the overall quality of ice dancing. What about the rest of the compulsory patterns? As long as you hit the 3 artificially selected KPs, you can fudge the rest of the steps? That seems to be the message.
    Last edited by Jun Y; 11-10-2013 at 06:02 AM.

  11. #291
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    Jun Y, i share your sentiments. Sometimes i see the missed key points in real time or in slo-mo and can predict when credit will or will not be given. But like i alluded to in my post above, SA was surprising to me (see the bookie thread in the Trash Can). I thought the calling was generous for both D&W and C&L. And i was surprised when Fabian didn't get credit for FS2KP2 at CoC. I wish we had access to the footage they use when reviewing a key point.

    And i too think that carriage, articulation of the free leg, unison, close positions, etc. are undervalued in the way the patterns are evaluated.

  12. #292
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    I just cannot get worked up over the KPs. Sure, some skaters are CLEARLY unable to perform their choctaw or mohawk on secure edges and they should be dinged, but how much is good enough? KPs are judged on a dichotomous scale, yay or nay, which I think is very unfair and inaccurate to begin with. To let 3 arbitrarily picked steps determine a substantial portion of the score while letting the rest of the program go (yes, I'm exaggerating but not much) ... I just don't see the point. What about the speed and ease of executing the pattern? What if someone hits the edges clearly but does so with smaller coverage or weaker upper body control? Can YYY in team 1 and YNN in team 2 be a true reflection of how different their qualities are? Can one learn what's good skating and what's less good skating by the summation of the rules written on the books? The closer to Olympics we get the more I wonder about it, and that applies to all disciplines, not just ice dancing.
    Last edited by Jun Y; 11-10-2013 at 06:18 AM.

  13. #293
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    I agree with all of your sentiments Jun Y. I think that IJS hasn't been very good with how it's been handling ice dancing.

    All of the issues you have mentioned should be considered by the judges when evaluating the GOE but...

  14. #294

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    I have wanted to like P&B so much over the years and appreciated their originality. But none of their programs really worked for me, until this one. I love it - watched it three times in a row. It is up there among my faves.

    I think it will be a battle between W&P and P&B for bronze, and that battle will be more exciting the non-battle for gold, which seems decided already. That is, unless the fix is in for a bronze for B&S, whose free dance just does not inspire this season.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I think it will be a battle between W&P and P&B for bronze, and that battle will be more exciting the non-battle for gold, which seems decided already.
    D/W's SP score at NHK was 73.7. V/M's at SC was 73.15. This is just the GP. I think it's a little soon to call the battle for gold decided.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I agree with all of your sentiments Jun Y. I think that IJS hasn't been very good with how it's been handling ice dancing.
    I agree as well. There will probably be more teams in the 10th to 24th place rank getting the key points than the top 5 in Sochi.
    Ice Dance Technical Committee

    On another note, I heard the IDTC is looking at a new SD format in the future. Instead of having two sequences of a CD pattern repeated, the SD will have just one sequence of the pattern, and the second sequence will have steps the skaters can create themselves. Slowly phasing out the CD with time...
    Last edited by Tweak; 11-10-2013 at 09:13 AM.

  17. #297

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    D/W's SP score at NHK was 73.7. V/M's at SC was 73.15. This is just the GP. I think it's a little soon to call the battle for gold decided.
    I really hope that you are right.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tweak View Post
    On another note, I heard the IDTC is looking at a new SD format in the future. Instead of having two sequences of a CD pattern repeated, the SD will have just one sequence of the pattern, and the second sequence will have steps the skaters can create themselves. Slowly phasing out the CD with time...
    That is quite sad. At the moment the patterns aren't repeated. It's just one pattern split into two parts.

    It would be cool to have an additional pattern created by the skaters but keep the one compulsory pattern at least!

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    That is quite sad. At the moment the patterns aren't repeated. It's just one pattern split into two parts.

    It would be cool to have an additional pattern created by the skaters but keep the one compulsory pattern at least!
    Exactly. They are going about it the wrong way. Either keep the whole one pattern or get rid of it altogether and just have the OD format. Much harder to compare apples to apples with just the one sequence of the pattern anyways.
    Last edited by Tweak; 11-10-2013 at 04:58 PM.

  20. #300
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    We've come the way from two CDs at a competiton, through one CD, through a little piece of CD inside the SD to an even smaller part of CD inside the SD. This way CD is sentenced to die. It was already punched, stabbed and shot in the head. How much more can the poor thing take?

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