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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post
    V&M are in a league of their own; it is D&W that are totally over-rated. Their basic skating technique is non-existent; they pick across the ice and don't have any depth of edge, and they just skip and hop into and and between their elements. They have no extension or refinement in their movements; their lifts are basic and are made to fool the eye that they are difficult, when they are not.

    DW shouldn't even be even in the top 10, much less World Champs.

    P&B, W&P, C&L, B&S, heck, even that other Russian team (names elude me at the moment), those of the Ghost-hot-mess-of-a-program-infamy, have solid technique. They're not hacking it it like D & W.

    I've always liked P & B, but they always see to falter in big competitions and they lack V & M's refinement. But their basic technique is beautiful, and they always come up with good programs; looking forward to their programs this season.

    D/W are excellant at hiding their weaknesses
    Last edited by parapluies; 05-21-2013 at 07:09 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post
    V&M are in a league of their own; it is D&W that are totally over-rated. Their basic skating technique is non-existent; they pick across the ice and don't have any depth of edge, and they just skip and hop into and and between their elements. They have no extension or refinement in their movements; their lifts are basic and are made to fool the eye that they are difficult, when they are not.

    DW shouldn't even be even in the top 10, much less World Champs.

    P&B, W&P, C&L, B&S, heck, even that other Russian team (names elude me at the moment), those of the Ghost-hot-mess-of-a-program-infamy, have solid technique. They're not hacking it it like D & W.

    I've always liked P & B, but they always see to falter in big competitions and they lack V & M's refinement. But their basic technique is beautiful, and they always come up with good programs; looking forward to their programs this season.
    You'd probably be more convincing if you're statements wouldn't be so primitive and massively exaggerated. Now they just show that you haven't really been paying attention to Davis/White's skating, and even to some things in Tessa and Scott's skating. And, what's worse - you are inciting hostility even in people who would probably listen if things were explained to them in a more accurate and realistic manner. I am saying that even though I am a Tessa and Scott fan.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post
    V&M are in a league of their own; it is D&W that are totally over-rated. Their basic skating technique is non-existent; they pick across the ice and don't have any depth of edge, and they just skip and hop into and and between their elements. They have no extension or refinement in their movements; their lifts are basic and are made to fool the eye that they are difficult, when they are not.

    DW shouldn't even be even in the top 10, much less World Champs.


    P&B, W&P, C&L, B&S, heck, even that other Russian team (names elude me at the moment), those of the Ghost-hot-mess-of-a-program-infamy, have solid technique. They're not hacking it it like D & W.

    I've always liked P & B, but they always see to falter in big competitions and they lack V & M's refinement. But their basic technique is beautiful, and they always come up with good programs; looking forward to their programs this season.
    WOW! Talk about personal dislike. May be you are afraid that D&W may dethrone your beloved V&M?

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post
    V&M are in a league of their own; it is D&W that are totally over-rated. Their basic skating technique is non-existent; they pick across the ice and don't have any depth of edge, and they just skip and hop into and and between their elements. They have no extension or refinement in their movements; their lifts are basic and are made to fool the eye that they are difficult, when they are not.

    DW shouldn't even be even in the top 10, much less World Champs.
    I don't like them either, but this is completely ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Because I have yet to see anything out of Camp Shpilband that is as interesting as most of P/B's past programs. And if they are going to him to get the big politicking push for the Olympic year, I imagine they have been instructed to do what he says.
    It's not like they were doing cutting edge work while with Anejlika and Pasquale, either. I think P/B did more interesting programs earlier in their career, but they weren't technically strong enough back then. I'd love to see what they could do with their 2007-8 programs now.

    IIRC, Karine Arribert said in an interview that Shpilband was very positive about Blanc/Bouquet's Grand Corps Malade program, which suggests that he's pretty open-minded about choreo and concepts. I don't think he'll try to change too much about P/B at this point in their career. This is about the polish and the politiks.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudy_Gumdrops View Post
    To each their own. I've never agreed that D&W and V&M are 15 points better than the likes of P&B (just as one example), but that's what the judges have perpetuated over the last quad. I guess I'm just sick of both and want some massive upsets to happen.

    Peoples used to complain about Ice Dance being boring and predictable in the past, but it's been worse over this last quad than at any other time imo.
    I agree with this Cloudy_Gumdrops. I've felt that pre Fabian's injury P&B have tended to be underrated by the judges and some/most fans. IMO they should have been closer to the top two and do IMHO have superior overall skating skills to D&W although D&W until this season just ended do have more speed (though they give up other things to maintain that speed) and more difficulty.

    Even if someone agrees that the top two teams belong there switching off titles, I also agree that the judges could easily have kept them there with lower scores. ITA that neither team is 15 points better than a healthy P&B.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    You mean more predictable than when Grishuk/Platov went undefeated for four seasons in a row? Or Bestemianova/Bukin? Torvil/Dean? Even Navka/Kostomorov from 2004-2006?

    At least this time, we have two teams on top who are trading titles.
    Change for the sake of change isn't great either. It too bad the fans think that the same team winning for more than 2 seasons in a row is wrong somehow. It may be boring to some but for me it's more an indication of how strong technically and artistically certain teams are. I love seeing teams that are good enough to come back year after year and continue to improve and stay ahead of the pack. I realize that puts me in the minority. I hate the idea of taking turns and passing titles back and forth simply to keep up the excitement for the audience. How about really inform the audience about all the ins and outs of icedance. Not give informative commentary only to set it off/counter it with double standards and use of passive/aggressive barbs directed at the less popular teams/teams that the American audience might not appreciate as much. Remarks meant to make the audience think that some teams are better than they are and others are worse than they are.

    T&D deserved all four of their titles although with G&P and even B&B one or two or their titles could be disputed. N&K only won two World titles; they didn't compete at Worlds post Torino.

    Speaking of N&K, they remind me that DenStavs are another team who should have won practically every world title during the 02/03 - 05/06 quad. Looking back while I didn't have a huge wuzrobbed fit at the time, Albena and Maxim also should have won the 2004 world title. Not just because and due to protocol judging but because they had the skating skills, programs and performances to support that.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Because I have yet to see anything out of Camp Shpilband that is as interesting as most of P/B's past programs. And if they are going to him to get the big politicking push for the Olympic year, I imagine they have been instructed to do what he says.
    I think since Vancouver Igor has gone for the generic connect the dots programs that focus more on tecnical merit and point collecting than creativity mixed with skating skill. Even Carmen was done by an outside choreographer.

    That said Igor has shown in the past that he is capable of coming up with some great material. Why he has chosen to go the route he has is beyond me. Well I guess I can answer my own question. The judges don't seem to mind and are rewarding his point collecting OD's/FD's.

    To go back on topic, good for P&B or rather Didier and the French federation. After worlds I was also concerned about what P&B's placement meant for this coming year even though everyone knew that Fabian was injured. Once Fabian is healthy he and Nathalie are or should be strong medal contenders. Sadly the off ice doings still remain just as much a part of icedance as the on ice skating. In a perfect world I would love to see the day when the skating and only the skating spoke for itself but that isn't the way things work. P&B can concentrate on further improving their skating and getting comfortable with their new programs. If they need Igor to help them gain the placements that IMHO they could win fairly on their own minus the political manuvering then so be it. Very smart move.

    I also hope that Pasquale comes around or at least directs his anger only towards the French federation. He must be aware that it was their choice not P&B's to leave him. P&B don't deserve his anger over the situation.

  6. #86
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    Wow, interesting move indeed. I'll be curious to see whose politiks will be more effective next season, Shpilband's in favor of P/B or Tarasova's against them. Tarasova has never tired to point out that P/B's skills are not good enough for ice dancing.

    It's quite understandable that Pasquale would feel angry and hurt, he is losing top-level students after all, instead of gaining new ones.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post

    DW shouldn't even be even in the top 10, much less World Champs.
    Thank God the judges strongly disagree with you.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    WOW! Talk about personal dislike. May be you are afraid that D&W may dethrone your beloved V&M?
    No, it's more about giving the other teams (P&B, W&P, C&L, B&S et al) fair credit for their actual skating and ice dancing skills.

  9. #89
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    I was wondering why an Italian figure skating paper would post P/B FD theme on their facebook page, before it was announced officially. Hopefully, the leak does not come from Camerlengo or Scalli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Ovsiannikov View Post
    Speaking of N&K, they remind me that DenStavs are another team who should have won practically every world title during the 02/03 - 05/06 quad. Looking back while I didn't have a huge wuzrobbed fit at the time, Albena and Maxim also should have won the 2004 world title. Not just because and due to protocol judging but because they had the skating skills, programs and performances to support that.
    Eh I think that Navka and Kostomarov's best year was 2004 and that they deserved to win worlds that year. Their OD to Ain't No Sunshine as well as their FD to Pink Panther were both amazingly artistic as well as well executed. 2005 was the year that they had awful programs because of IJS. That Tosca... barf

  11. #91
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    FWIW I think we lost creative P&B a long time ago, back in 2009 with the Circus FD. It was cheesy and not befitting their talents. Chaplin was wonderful (though felt a bit like Circus II), but their other recent FDs (Time, Arabian, and Rolling Stones) have been mediocre for their standards, although I admire how they commit to different music styles. IMO their best work was The Four Seasons and Madness, and I also liked the ideas in their earlier FDs such as Che Guevera, Cats, and Les Miz, even if they were unpolished then (diamonds in the rough, innit? ).

    I'm not too worried about Sphilband ruining that part of them. In fact I was kinda meh when I heard their choreographers for this season were circus oriented.

    I don't believe Shpilband will mess with their ideas too much, but he probably will take out a lot of the transitions, making the dance less interesting, but which will probably result in more polish and speed. That's disappointing but understandable. The IJS does not seem to value transitions at all in ice dance, going to back the days of DelSchoes and DenSta. It is mystifying to me, especially since Chan and Kostner seem to get tons of credit for that in the singles... since when are things like skating skills, choreography, and transitions valued more in singles than in ice dance? I don't get it, but if P&B want a medal they need to play the game and Shpilband knows the game.

    BTW and o/t, do we know for sure if Igor choreo'd C&B's Dr. Z FD? It looks more like Marina's work to me so I was wondering if it was possible that she did it before they left.

    Basically I'm curious what his non-Marina work will look like and I'm not sure if last season counts because of his abruptly having to leave and not getting the time to fully work on his ideas (plus TAT's interference with R&T)... going back to his early 2000s stuff for B&A, I liked it a lot, but it was 6.0 stuff.

  12. #92
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    Didn't he do Punsalan/Swallow's brilliant Tango FD in Nagano? They should have placed in the top three in at least the FD portion. Of course, tangos seem to be Igor's specialty.

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    oh i would like to hear cappellini/lanotte about this.

    hope this will not push them backwards.

    don't know what to think about this move, from whomever it was initiated. i really liked p/b under zhulin but absolutely didn't like the under krylova/carmalengo, who i funnily like as coaches.

    so in this regard this may be an improvement, i hope it's not bad for the italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    I was wondering why an Italian figure skating paper would post P/B FD theme on their facebook page, before it was announced officially. Hopefully, the leak does not come from Camerlengo or Scalli
    What's the theme?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post
    No, it's more about giving the other teams (P&B, W&P, C&L, B&S et al) fair credit for their actual skating and ice dancing skills.
    None of the teams you mentioned are at the level of D&S (whom you seem to intensely dislike) and V&M (whom you seem to adore) where skills and execution is concerned. They are getting fair credit. If the teams you mentioned started beating these top two teams right now, THAT would be unfair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    None of the teams you mentioned are at the level of D&S and V&M where skills and execution is concerned. They are getting fair credit. If the teams you mentioned started beating these top two teams right now, that would be unfair.
    Maybe you guys could make a separate thread in trash can for this topic.

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    Cappellini/Lanotte, Pechalat/Bourzat, and Jones/Carron were training in Lyon with team Zazoui not so long ago. It's funny to see them with Igor now. I am guessing that C/L may continue after Sochi, right?
    Igor is a master at getting high levels for the steps, spins, lifts. He will get them boring steps, but will get them level 4s on a consistent basis. I thought that P/B lost creativity in their lifts and spins lately. Do Marina and Igor work with the same acrobats? P/B used to have spectacular acrobatic lifts like the neck on neck one. Rules have changed since, but they need to take risks in the lift again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Didn't he do Punsalan/Swallow's brilliant Tango FD in Nagano? They should have placed in the top three in at least the FD portion. Of course, tangos seem to be Igor's specialty.
    I loved the tangos he did for L&T as well. Their dances and P&S' had certain intricacies that wouldn't play well under CoP, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeschke View Post
    oh i would like to hear cappellini/lanotte about this.

    hope this will not push them backwards.
    The thing about C&L is I never feel like they pass anyone for good. Last Worlds they beat B&S, but this year were passed by them. This Worlds they beat P&B, but I still consider P&B the stronger skaters. The CoP allows for dancers to win on the day when someone else is having technical problems, but it will be hard for C&L to permanently pass a team like P&B because C&L's skating skills are much weaker and they lack speed. I don't see them as the current 4th best team in the world. Even I&K would pass them easily (from 9th at Worlds) with a good skate next season. Speed is everything now, apparently, and C&L need to work on it to be considered part of the upper echelon.

    I pretty much take for granted that a healthy P&B will surpass C&L. Their issue will be B&S. Man, P&B coming in 4th at the Olympics would be (will be, probably) such a punch in the gut. At least they'll go down fighting now.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    Cappellini/Lanotte, Pechalat/Bourzat, and Jones/Carron were training in Lyon with team Zazoui not so long ago. It's funny to see them with Igor now. I am guessing that C/L may continue after Sochi, right?
    Hm, is she in danger of being the next Linichuk? Her teams were always about good basics, creativity, intricate choreography, nice lines... and these things don't seem to be rewarded right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    Cappellini/Lanotte, Pechalat/Bourzat, and Jones/Carron were training in Lyon with team Zazoui not so long ago. It's funny to see them with Igor now. I am guessing that C/L may continue after Sochi, right?
    P/B left Lyon five years ago, when they were still the second French team. Wasn't that a major reason why they left? Either way, it's not exactly a recent thing...

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by marathongirl76 View Post
    it is D&W that are totally over-rated. Their basic skating technique is non-existent; they pick across the ice and don't have any depth of edge, and they just skip and hop into and and between their elements. They have no extension or refinement in their movements; their lifts are basic and are made to fool the eye that they are difficult, when they are not.

    DW shouldn't even be even in the top 10, much less World Champs.
    Guuuuuuuuurllllllll ..... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. The entire post is a S T RRRRR eeeeeeeeeeeeeee t chhhhhhhh.

    Not only is it a stretch, I believe it is total, ummm HOOOOOOEY.

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