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  1. #1

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    Daisuke Takahashi on the importance of being 'gorgeous'

    New article on Dai entitled: Daisuke Takahashi: Japan's golden boy on the importance of being 'gorgeous'.

    ETA - The word 'gorgeous' is a mistranslation by the author of the article. The word actually used by Dai was 'showmanship' (i.e. 'on the importance of showmanship' - see post 2 below). Hence, the article with corrected translation, reads:-

    "A must-have quality for figure skaters is, I think, [showmanship]."

    Japan's Daisuke Takahashi throws his head back and laughs, but he is serious.

    His is a sport where performance is everything -- from the flamboyant routines to the glitzy outfits to the interaction with the crowd.

    "The best part about figure skating is how I can have the entire audience's attention to myself," the former world champion told CNN's Human to Hero series.

    "I believe performing and showing off is very important, but I constantly prevent myself from becoming too self-absorbed. The audience won't be moved if I'm performing only for my satisfaction.

    "It's sort of like playing 'catch.' For me, when I'm watching musicals or performances, I feel a bit uncomfortable when the actor is too self-absorbed. I like the people who can perform while being sensitive of the atmosphere."

    "I never thought I have anything special. I've always thought about what I don't have compared to other skaters," he says.

    "I tend to think like other skaters get more applause than I do. I constantly think about ways I can level up, and I'm often jealous of other skaters," he adds, laughing. "When I see someone's cool performance, it makes me want to be like them, and that's what motivates me."
    Last edited by Maofan7; 05-19-2013 at 01:04 AM.

  2. #2

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    Re-posting from the TV alerts forum: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3924193
    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    It's a bit misleading that the article is titled, "Japan's golden boy on the importance of being 'gorgeous'." The word Daisuke used in response to the question about which quality every figure skater needed was "hanayakasa," which, in this context, would be better translated as "flair" or even "expressiveness" or "showmanship".
    Quote Originally Posted by ostile17 View Post
    It is, you are right, and thank you so much for pointing that out! I cringe every time I read it!
    Even though I don't speak Japanese I was sure from the beginning that was the wrong translation. I'm used to read Daisuke translated properly so to me, the whole article and captioning feel they are not out of his mouth. It sure doesn't reflect the humbleness of his personality and all in all doesn't sound like him. I know it's not easy to catch the nuances of the language, but CNN did a very poor job on this, pity! Hopefully at least one of the Japanese fans will recap it soon!
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Re-posting from the TV alerts forum: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3924193
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Maofan7; 05-19-2013 at 01:04 AM.

  4. #4

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    Thanks Maofan and Sylvia!
    Support Daisuke, join Daisuke Takahashi Road to Sochi

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    Takahashi was right in a sense. But that is not all about figure skating, isn't it? Afterall, showmanship has only counted maxium 30% in scoring. Should scoring system emphasizes the showmanship more? I don't think so. I think many fans have given showmanship more weight than it actually has. That is one of the main reasons that there have been great conflicts between the judging system and the fans.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-20-2013 at 04:45 PM.

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    ^^Where in the article did Dai did say that figure skating is all about showmanship or that the
    scoring system should empasize showmanship more?

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    Read it again! Did I say anywhere that Dai said it? The article did say, "he is a sport where performance is everything". And the article and Takahashi have focused on only showmanship as if the showmanship has defined Takahashi, which I think that it probably has.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-20-2013 at 05:28 PM.

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    I misunderstood your first post. You were stating your opinion and how you interpreted the article, I get it.

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    Ahhh, despite the language difficulties and interpretation problems associated with translation, I think Dai reveals a lot re his humility and how hard he has worked at improving over the course of his career. He was apparently asked about a key quality that figure skaters need to have, and Dai picked "showmanship" as the quality that he feels is a "must have." That doesn't mean he feels everything else in skating is less important.

    It is the person writing the article who is emphasizing theatrical performance abilities as "everything." Quite often media outlets make mistakes in context and/ or emphasis when writing about figure skating. Obviously, athleticism in figure skating is equally important. There are some skating fans who also make the mistake of thinking that athleticism is more important than artistic and performance qualities. What makes figure skating unique is that both art and sport are important in equal measure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Takahashi was right in a sense. But that is not all about figure skating, isn't it? Afterall, showmanship has only counted maxium 30% in scoring. Should scoring system emphasizes the showmanship more? I don't think so. I think many fans have given showmanship more weight than it actually has. That is one of the main reasons that there have been great conflicts between the judging system and the fans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Read it again! Did I say anywhere that Dai said it? The article did say, "he is a sport where performance is everything". And the article and Takahashi have focused on only showmanship as if the showmanship has defined Takahashi, which I think that it probably has.
    Your reading and your opinion, but it's clear that Dai did not say "showmanship" is all there is to figure skating, despite the writer's statement that "showmanship is everything in figure skating." Apparently you are giving Dai a backhanded compliment by stating that "showmanship defines his career," but that it doesn't and shouldn't carry much "weight" in the scoring.

    Of course showmanship defines Dai's skating career, as does a whole lotta other positive things including hard work, superb artistry, charisma, sportsmanship, grace, athleticism, and growth through consistently challenging himself to improve. From all the evidence that I've seen, it seems to me that Dai is also quite media savvy as well as greatly admired and respected by his competitors and by skating fans everywhere.

    BTW, your homeboy Patrick Chan, has professed that he looks up to Dai. In fact, from Patrick's comments in past interviews, it seems that Patrick admires Dai for his artistry and showmanship, as well as for his technical brilliance.

    Under 6.0, which also was not a perfect system, presentation marks carried a lot of weight and were the "tiebreaker." As to what the current, ineffective judging system assigns re the numbers ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Your reading and your opinion, but it's clear that Dai did not say "showmanship" is all there is to figure skating, despite the writer's statement that "showmanship is everything in figure skating." Apparently you are giving Dai a backhanded compliment by stating that "showmanship defines his career," but that it doesn't and shouldn't carry much "weight" in the scoring.
    Why not? Unlike some people, I'd give any skaters where it's due anytime. It was not "backhanded". I've meant to praise him. There was no conflict on what the article said and what I've said as far as I'm concerned. I thought that this is a general topic, not a Takahashi uber thread where only the worship songs are allowed to be sung. Am I wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Of course showmanship defines Dai's skating career, as does a whole lotta other positive things including hard work, superb artistry, charisma, sportsmanship, grace, athleticism, and growth through consistently challenging himself to improve.
    Sorry, but "superb artistry, charisma, grace" are belonging to showmanship. They are not "other positive things".

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    BTW, your homeboy Patrick Chan, has professed that he looks up to Dai. In fact, from Patrick's comments in past interviews, it seems that Patrick admires Dai for his artistry and showmanship, as well as for his technical brilliance.
    I don't understand why Chan has to be dragged in this? Should I mention your homeboy Johnny Weir when I respond to your post? Since you have mentioned about Chan admiring Takahashi, for your information, Takahashi has (so has Hanyu) tremendous admirations on Chan's abilities and talent in skating, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Under 6.0, which also was not a perfect system, presentation marks carried a lot of weight and were the "tiebreaker." As to what the current, ineffective judging system assigns re the numbers ...
    It's obvious. 6.0 system has given 50% weight in showmanship equal to the weight on technics. But the current IJS has down-sized that aspect.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    It's obvious. 6.0 system has given 50% weight in showmanship equal to the weight on technics. But the current IJS has down-sized that aspect.
    Give me a break, under 6.0, presentation mark was NOT ARTISTRY mark, not to mention the showmanship for god's sake. In the rule book, same as PCS under IJS, there were specific 1,2, 3, 4 criteria to define what's good presentation such as variation of speed, there were just no protocol for you to see. Good SS is important in any system. Yagudin and Plushenko could win over Timothy Goebel even though they jumped less quads in a FS is the perfect example for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Give me a break, under 6.0, presentation mark was NOT ARTISTRY mark, not to mention the showmanship for god's sake. In the rule book, same as PCS under IJS, there were specific 1,2, 3, 4 criteria to define what's good presentation such as variation of speed, there were just no protocol for you to see. Good SS is important in any system. Yagudin and Plushenko could win over Timothy Goebel even though they jumped less quads in a FS is the perfect example for you.
    Perhaps showmanship is not the best word to represent presentation. I believe in 6.0, presentation marks was often refered to as artistic marks. It's true that good SS is important under any system. But it is also true that current IJS has cut down the presentation or artistic aspect, increased and emphasized technical aspect. In my understanding, SS has been up staged in IJS. It's hard to estimate what technical aspect or even whether or not any technical aspect had been blended into presentation marks in old 6.0. The best estimate was 50% tech in the name of technical marks and 50% performance and artistry in presentation marks. Your example of Yagudin and Plushenko won over Goebel doesn't explain your point at all. Yagudin and Plushenko have had superior artistry which were projective, meaningful, theatrical, and moving compared with Goebel's dry, emotionless performances.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-22-2013 at 06:24 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Perhaps showmanship is not the best word to represent presentation. I believe in 6.0, presentation marks was often refered to as artistic marks. It's true that good SS is important under any system. But it is also true that current IJS has cut down the presentation or artistic aspect, increased and emphasized technical aspect. In my understanding, SS has been upstaged in IJS. It's hard to estimate what technical aspect or even whether or not any technical aspect had been blended into presentation marks in old 6.0. The best estimate was 50% tech in the name of technical marks and 50% performance and artistry in presentation marks. Your example of Yagudin and Plushenko won over Goebel doesn't explain your point at all. Yagudin and Plushenko have had superior artistry which were projective, meaningful, theatrical, and moving compared with Goebel's dry, emotionless performances.
    Your post only shows that you lack the knowledge of both 6.0 and IJS. As I said, just like IJS, under 6.0 there were also 5 categories defining presentation mark. I am not gonna show you the old rule book and discuss the details about that with you, I think lots of fans on this board know which one is true.
    IJS did not cut down the presentation or artistic aspect, it's right there in the rule book, such as carriage, emotions, projection, expression of the music's style, character, rhythm, etc. All about artistic. To be artistic, someone has to have both artistic talent and technique, and that's hard. That's why those kind of skaters are rare. Skaters do not have to be artistic to win (as always), does not mean the system cut down the artistic aspect. Of course, you can keep saying that, but I think it may affect your credibility when you defend for Patrick Chan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Your post only shows that you lack the knowledge of both 6.0 and IJS. As I said, just like IJS, under 6.0 there were also 5 categories defining presentation mark. I am not gonna show you the old rule book and discuss the details about that with you, I think lots of fans on this board know which one is true.
    IJS did not cut down the presentation or artistic aspect, it's right there in the rule book, such as carriage, emotions, projection, expression of the music's style, character, rhythm, etc. All about artistic. To be artistic, someone has to have both artistic talent and technique, and that's hard. That's why those kind of skaters are rare. Skaters do not have to be artistic to win (as always), does not mean the system cut down the artistic aspect. Of course, you can keep saying that, but I think it may affect your credibility when you defend for Patrick Chan.
    Such an empty and laughable post! Why? You are not going to teach me the old rules in order to contribute at least something meaningful in discussion here instead of scorning me who is "lack the knowledge of..."? Z, Z, Z,... What a shame!

    You have time to throw in words like "you lack the knowledge of" when you yourself don't even know what you are talking about! Do you know the rule book? From your this post, I don't think you do. Please go to read the IJS rule book first. Then tell me, under which category or categories in PCS that "carriage, emotions, projection, expression of the music's style, character, rhythm, etc" are listed?!

    You've never believed me before. Why should I expect anything different? Do you think I care?! Sheesh!








    ...On a second thought, I might just be kind, and tell you that what you have listed in your post all belong to what I've already said that 30%.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-23-2013 at 05:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Such an empty and laughable post! Why? You are not going to teach me the old rules in order to contribute at least something meaningful in discussion here instead of scorning me who is "lack the knowledge of..."? Z, Z, Z,... What a shame!

    You have time to throw in words like "you lack the knowledge of" when you yourself don't even know what you are talking about! Do you know the rule book? I don't think you do. Please go to read the IJS rule book first. Then tell me, under which category or categories in PCS that "carriage, emotions, projection, expression of the music's style, character, rhythm, etc" are listed?!

    You've never believed me before. Why should I expect anything different? Do you think I care?! Sheesh!
    ...On a second thought, I might just be kind, and tell you that what you have listed in your post all belong to what I've already said that 30%.

    You are going a little bit crazy now. Those words are laughable and hard for you to understand, huh? Those are from the IJS rule book, the system someone is trying to defend it like it's a perfect system while 6.0 is totally rotten. LOL.
    And yes, those things are about 30%, under 6.0 it's about that much too. And it's risky, like a Canadian commentator(Tracey Wilson? dont remember exactly) said, if skaters put emotions into their skate, it's harder for them to execute the technical elements. And sometimes it costs them the win. But those who win with great technique and artistry, and give great performance, we call them great champions. Obviously, Patrick Chan knows that better than you do, that's why he chose Kathy Johnson, he said something like, "I want to be great", "I want to work on emotions", right? But I guess it's not easy, he's not there yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    You are going a little bit crazy now. Those words are laughable and hard for you to understand, huh? Those are from the IJS rule book, the system someone is trying to defend it like it's a perfect system while 6.0 is totally rotten. LOL.
    And yes, those things are about 30%, under 6.0 it's about that much too. And it's risky, like a Canadian commentator(Tracey Wilson? dont remember exactly) said, if skaters put emotions into their skate, it's harder for them to execute the technical elements. And sometimes it costs them the win. But those who win with great technique and artistry, and give great performance, we call them great champions. Obviously, Patrick Chan knows that better than you do, that's why he chose Kathy Johnson, he said something like, "I want to be great", "I want to work on emotions", right? But I guess it's not easy, he's not there yet.
    Don't worry, I'm perfectly rational. Though what I'm about to say might make you a little crazy.

    Something might have been mixed up in your mind I'm afraid. What are the "5 categories" in presentation marks in 6.0 system?! About 6.0, here you go:

    http://figureskating.about.com/gi/o....asp%3Fid%3D314

    The presentation mark reflects a judge's assessment of the program as a whole: of its composition, originality, and use of ice, and of the skater's carriage, style, and expression of the music chosen.
    "Composition and originality" belong to CH in IJS. "use of ice" isn't specifically said in IJS. "Carriage and style" belong to PE in IJS. "Expression of the music chosen" belong to IN in IJS. Those CH, PE, and IN only make up 30% in current IJS. But in old 6.0, it was 50% of the total score.

    So I was correct on everything I've said in the first place.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-23-2013 at 03:16 PM.

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    Yes apparently you're always correctamente, Err Eyre, even in the second, third and fourth places. Undeniable proof that it's irrational to argue with perfectly rational airheads who dumbfoundedly know it all, and then some.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-23-2013 at 06:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Yes apparently you're always correctamente, Err Eyre, even in the second, third and fourth places. Undeniable proof that it's irrational to argue with perfectly rational airheads who dumbfoundedly know it all, and then some.
    What's your point, sweetie? I'm not always correct, but I've just happened to be correct this time. Lucky me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Don't worry, I'm perfectly rational. Though what I'm about to say might make you a little crazy.

    Something might have been mixed up in your mind I'm afraid. What are the "5 categories in presentation marks in 6.0 system?! About 6.0, here you go:

    http://figureskating.about.com/gi/o....asp%3Fid%3D314



    "Composition and originality" belong to CH in IJS. "use of ice" isn't specifically said in IJS. "Carriage and style" belong to PE in IJS. "Expression of the music chosen" belong to IN in IJS. Those CH, PE, and IN only make up 30% in current IJS. But in old 6.0, it was 50% of the total score.

    So I was correct on everything I've said in the first place.
    No, you are actually incorrect. The one sentence you quoted (from a source that is as loose about fact-checking as about.com, no less) is merely a short, one-sentence summary of the presentation mark that is far from complete. The old Skate Canada website had a more authoritative, accurate and complete guide to what the presentation mark actually consisted of under 6.0: http://web.archive.org/web/200206070...chpresent.html

    Eight Components of the Presentation Mark

    When assigning the presentation mark, each of the following elements is taken into consideration before arriving at one number:

    1. harmonious composition/conformity with the music chosen
    2. variation of speed
    3. use of the ice surface
    4. ease of movement/sureness
    5. carriage and style
    6. originality
    7. expression of the character of the music
    8. unison (pair skating)

    1. Harmonious Composition/Conformity with the Music Chosen
    This is essentially the overall "look and feel" of the program. Judges must determine if the skater or team is skating in time with the music, and in the case of pairs, with one another. Is the music used fully in terms of placement of highlights? Is the choreography suited to the music and the skater?

    2. Variation of Speed
    While general speed is assessed under the technical merit/required elements mark, variation of speed is considered in the presentation mark. Judges look for a change in speed of movement (long, sustained movement and short, sharp contractions), ease and variety of acceleration/deceleration, all of which will be dictated by the chosen music. A program should strive to incorporate changes in speed of skating and movement.

    3. Utilization of Ice Surface and Space
    A program should cover the entire ice surface, using a variety of patterns, directions and levels (low, medium and high). Skaters should avoid programs which rely heavily on circular and straight line patterns. Highlights should be distributed evenly over the entire ice surface (i.e. not all in between the two blue lines, nor in one or the other end-zone). Again, use of pattern, direction, level and placement of highlights should be dictated by the chosen music and/or theme.

    4. Easy Movement/Sureness in Time to the Music
    In this component, judges are essentially looking for the ease with which the skater or team performs. Balance, strength, rhythm, timing and flow are all assessed. Skaters performing choreography and highlights with apparent effortlessness will be rewarded with a higher presentation mark. Michelle Kwan is a good example of a skater who generally performs with such ease.

    5. Carriage and Style
    Skaters should perform with erect carriage and strong line. Variations in line and carriage in relation to the music/theme are acceptable, so long as they are still aesthetically pleasing and have proper alignment. Flexibility is also considered in this component.

    6. Originality
    Ideally, skaters and coaches, when choreographing a new program, venture to try something new - something which will advance the sport of skating beyond the present. Originality is rewarded through innovative movement, program concept (theme and/or music selected), or choreography. A skater who often "pushed the envelope" and took skating in a new direction was Canadian champion, World and Olympic medallist , Toller Cranston. More recently, Ukrainian skater Dimitry Dimitrenko has become quite well known for his creative and innovative choreography, style and movement.

    7. Expression of The Character of the Music
    Judges assess whether the skater demonstrates an understanding of the character of the music and uses the whole body in order to interpret the chosen music theme. Judges must determine whether the choreography is being performed because that is what the coach has indicated should be done at certain points in the program, or whether the program is skated with feeling. Choreography and movement should be inspired from within.

    8. Unison (Pairs)
    Unison is a key component of the presentation mark for pair teams. Skaters should have similar technique (jumping and spinning) and basic skating styles and demonstrate an ability to skate as "one". Judges determine whether or not the skaters are always within reach of one another or if they are scrambling to get in time with one another, continually searching for the other. While skating in time with one another, the pair needs to skate in time with the music, with similar performance levels. Excellent examples of pair teams who have the ability to skate seemingly as one unit are current World Champions Jamie Salé and David Pelletier, current Canadian pair medallists Kris and Kristy Wirtz and, of course, former World and Olympic champions Ekaterina Gordeeva and the late Sergei Grinkov.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vodkashot View Post
    No, you are actually incorrect. The one sentence you quoted (from a source that is as loose about fact-checking as about.com, no less) is merely a short, one-sentence summary of the presentation mark that is far from complete. The old Skate Canada website had a more authoritative, accurate and complete guide to what the presentation mark actually consisted of under 6.0: http://web.archive.org/web/200206070...chpresent.html
    Thanks for bringing up this info! Appreciate it!

    Let's see. So out of 7 elements ( the 8th one doesn't belong to singles skating) the things that my link didn't cover were 2 and 4. #2 has actually touched a little bit of SS and TR. #4 belongs to IN. I wanted to correct my previous post on "use of ice". "Use of ice" is actually covered under CH in IJS.

    Overall, it doesn't change much for what I've insisted. The old 6.0 presentation mark still covers about 30% of what they are covered under current IJS. As I've said before that IJS has up staged SS and technics. It has made SS and TR two individual category. In the meantime, it has reduced the importance of old presentation mark which was worth 50% before.
    Last edited by Eyre; 05-23-2013 at 10:14 PM.

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